children being 'bribed' to spend time with autistic child... not sure how I feel about it.

[pingu2209]

This morning my ds was rather pleased as he had been given 'team points' from the teacher for spending time/playing with a child in his class that has autism. The child isn't severely autistic, it is mild-moderate.

I just don't know how I feel about it... sad, puzzled, worried, pleased the school is being 'cleaver' etc. I guess it is better than the child being all alone. But I'm not sure what message this is giving the children. They are all aged 7-9 (mixed year class).

I spoke to one other mum and she said that her dd is also given team points for taking the child into the lunch hall.

I'm not sure whether the child knows that his class peers are given team points when they take him to lunch or play in the playground with him. Certainly the child's mother does not know.

Surely the only "reward" should be making a new friend. I'd be really offended if I were the child or his parent. :(

I wish children wern't only taught to be good when a carrot is waved in their face.

working9while5, I don't think you're being fair to Miggsie. I think some variant of the situation she describes is quite common. My godson is friends with a classmate with SN (not ASD). As they have grown older, the other children in the class have fallen away and now my GS is really his only friend. At his school, he is constantly having to negotiate how he divides his time between his friend and the other friends (because they can't/won't all play together). At home, there is constant pressure from the friend's mum for more playdates: because they are the only ones her son gets, so she wants them very often. And GS is the one in the middle, having to negotiate tricky peer and playground politics, plus the pressure from both his own mum and his friend's mum.

This is quite a common issue, isn't it? I remember from my own childhood, hearing grown-ups trying to coerce their children into playing with me [shame]. Some children have a harder time fitting into the social dynamics at school - and children with ASD are more likely to be in that group, aren't they. And some other children are open-minded, generous, and resilient to playground politics and therefore will befriend those children - they should get some appreciation for that. If all or most of the parents encouraged their child to invite round the kid who never gets to go on playdates, that would help everybody. I see what the school is trying to do here: I can't comment on how well they are executing it, but the original idea is surely a good one.

Why must it be that if an NT child is friends with a disabled child that the NT child must be doing the other one a favour?

A child who sticks up for another, plays with another and takes care of another is called a FRIEND not a CARER.

FFS

Lola - think most schools implement a system where children are rewarded for good behaviour. I know my DS school has house points for being extra polite and courteous etc I don't see this as any different.

OP you're woried abaout your DD putting too much of her own developmentl time into helping this child...what do you imagine school is for? For lerning to read and write yes....for learning to make friends...yes....and also for learning how to be a good citizen,how to give a little more to those who need it.

I don't know if you're responding to me, babyheave. I referred in my post to my GS's friend, because that is what he is. But posters on this thread are saying that children with SN do often have social difficulties and may struggle to make friends. We all know what playground politics can be like, and a NT child who persists with a friendship with a child who is not popular (could be due to SN or racism or just general social misfittery, as in my case) is not doing them a favour, but is demonstrating qualities of generosity and resilience that shouldn't just be assumed.

The key thing though is wider social responsibility. If a child is struggling to fit in socially then they shouldn't just be helped by one other child. If just five of the children in my GS' class invited his friend round to play just twice a year, it would make a huge difference to his life. And my GS would stop feeling guilty every time he has a playdate with someone who isn't this friend. If just 3 or 4 of the parents said to their child, "This year, let's invite x to your party", then he would go to more than one party a year. I'm not saying we should force our children into friendships they don't want, but I do think parents, as well as school, should take some responsibility for the wellbeing of the class community, and that means making sure that everyone within it feels included.

hester - see what babyheave said.

Children have to learn how to negotiate relationships. That is true whether or not they have become friends with someone who is typically developing or disabled.

There are lots of kids who don't have disabilities who are loners and who will "cling on" to one child who befriends them. There is often fall out from different personality types. I disagree very strongly with Miggsie casting it as "caring" when really it's just part of childhood to work these things out.

As someone up thread said, some kids can be "over helpful" when they realise that a child is in need and some do it for attention initially (this is very true in the early years). Then they get bored. And things move on. Sometimes adults need to give support to both parties to manage the sticky bits. However, this is just those kids learning the ins and outs of social interaction. It's really got sod all to do with the school "making" the poor, poor typically developing child "care" for the disabled one.

The attitude here is that disabled kids are a burden. That's the bottom line. Their social skills are the issue. I don't agree. I think all children have to learn how to handle interactions with a wide variety of people and interacting with people with disability is but one small part of this learning curve.

X-posted with you hester

Um, I think I agree with everything you just said, working9while5. But then I agreed with Miggsie too, so i shall go away and think it through a bit more before I make a prat of myself.

My child attends mainstream school, there have been some issues but one thing that has worked well is the interaction between my son and his peers and indeed the older children in the school.

When we walk out at the end of the day most children know my son and will make a big effort to come over, make a fuss and say goodbye to him. At lunchtimes lots of the older children want to sit on his table. Part of me has felt suspicious of this but this was mostly dispelled recently when he recently had a party and most of his classmates made the effort to bring their children despite this being at a farm some distance away. Some of the children had less interaction with him but the majority went to lengths to include him and he clearly has some close friendships with some very caring five year olds frm his class. Most could teach adults a thing or too in this area.

I was recently on a train with him (he chooses sitting on a train over more traditional leisure activities - we weren't going anywhere on purpose just on a train because he loves trains) and a child I had never met before asked me if my child was x because he thought he knew him. He was very friendly and had met my son before, he seemed unpeterbed by the noises my son was making (excited noises) or the hand rubbing he was exhibiiting but other children on the train clearly have not been exposed to children with his needs before because they couldn't stop staring and giggling.

I wonder what it is that my son's school does that means the children are so accepting of my son. It's a small school but I think it's about the attitudes that are encouraged, kindness and compassion are acknowledged and I am proud of the children who have had these values reinforced by being alongside my son and his difficulties and similarly his level of empathy and confidence has improved. I am certain that many of the parents reinforce the value of my child and teach their children that kindness and compassion are good things.

I am certain that parents of NT children have a big part to play in the inclusion of children with additional needs.

I have fought and continue to fight to ensure that my son has the appropriate level of support in school, in my case the children are not acting in the capacity of adults, at a huge cost to myself he has the support he needs, but they are learning about the value and the diversity of our society.

Why shouldn't SN kids socialise with NT kids without it being seen as a chore. I think th children sound more open minded than their parents. If that's the attitude I feel really sad for my dd

Circle of friends sounds like a fantastic idea, I really think that it would help sn kids settle better into MS school. Every school school should have it

Rosie sadly we're not in the UK so I don't know about implementing a circle of friends for DS. His teaching assistant does try to encourage him to approach the other children outside but sometimes he just gets so distressed by their reaction toward him, and of course she can't be with him all the time, she needs a break herself. Fortunately he has a younger brother who he plays with and joins in with DS2's group of friends.

I feel unfortunately in DS1's situations parents do play a part in the children's reaction towards him as various things have been said to him, particularly with regard to his stimming.

It's such a shame really because he's such a bright, articulate little boy who simply just has trouble interacting with children of his own age.

There is absolutely no reason why SN and NT kids can't form genuine friendships and socialising together shouldn't be protrayed as a chore.

I do think Miggsie has taken a bit of unwarranted criticism on this thread. The situation Miggsie is describing sounds to me as though the NT child in question feels solely responsible for the happiness and wellbeing of a SN child who is their friend - IMO that's simply too much pressure. I can see how it would be really easy for the NT child to feel that playing with someone different for a change would entail being unkind to the SN friend (i.e. if the NT child knows that no-one else will play with/can communicate with the SN child, so while the NT child was off playing with someone else the SN child would be sitting all alone). IMO that isn't fair on the NT child - it's just too much pressure, and it gives them a sort-of Sophie's choice - you can either have other friends, or be a good, kind person. FWIW I interpreted Miggsie's carer comparison as the NT child having this sense of responsibility for the SN child's wellbeing being on their shoulders alone - I don't think that she meant it in a disparaging way. Hester is right - the key is getting more than one child involved, so no child feels that kind of pressure.

It's great to hear about such a positive outcome from circle of friends, I'm really pleased to hear that it can work.

We were asked about doing it for ds1, who has aspergers. I actually declined the offer. I didn't like the idea that other children were going to be talking about him in that way, and when it was discussed with the school SENCo, class teacher and counsellor, I did understand the benefits of it that they were trying to promote. But for some reason, and I'm not sure why, I just had a really strong feeling that it wasn't for us. I'm a big believer in trusting your instinct, so we didn't do it, but the school did a variation of it instead.

They chose a small group of children, 8 of them I think, and although none of them knew it, ds was the target child. There was also one other child that was just very shy and struggling socially, and I think it benefited him too. They talked about things they found hard, how to be a good freind, how they could help eachother and all sorts of things like that, and I prefered it because it actually gave ds some skills to help him cope socially, rather than just teaching the other around him how to cope with/help him. I thought that made a big difference, because ultimately I want ds to be prepared for the things that he will find hard throughout life, and for the fact that not everyone will find him easy to understand.

The school also did other things through PSHE with ds in mind that I think helped, but it was all done in very general terms, and things that other children found hard were talked about too. It meant that they all realised that they have their own differences in some ways, and I think the children really value the differences in eachother.

I think there can be times when children end up being default carers, as well as friends to children with difficulties. It won't always happen, and of course NT children can enjoy being with SN children, but I think it would be doing some very kind and thoughtful children a great disservice if we try and pretend that they always enjoy looking out for their friends with SN, and don't feel any burden at all.

I once had a little girl come up to me when they were in yr3 telling me that she was worried about my ds. She was so sweet! She said she'd tried to play with him but he didn't want to play with her and her friends, and she was worried because he was playing by himself at play time. Ds was capable of joining in with things if he wanted to, but sometimes the other children just weren't doing theing that interested him, so he would prefer to play alone. But when I spoke to this little girls Mum about it, I found out that she was actually really upset and was feeling a responsibility that was beyond her. It would be unfair to dismiss that concern and sense of responsibility by saying that she was just being kind and trying to enjoy ds's company. Adults can find it hard to look after their friends when they are having a bad time, that doesn't mean they are being carers, just that it can be hard.

I wouldn't worry about it. My little boy is mildly asd too and I am pleased that the children are encouraged to spend time with him, even if for a reward as to be kind to a special needs child who can be hard to understand, can be a feat for some children, but also rewarding too! May be the reward is because some children don't want to do it or are a little unsure. For those that are a little in the dark about autism, generally autistic children prefer small one to one settings so it is a good idea that say one child at a time is used, an autistic child (or indeed many children) would not worry in the least that a child was earning points to spend time with them.

Like I said don't worry.

bubblesincoffee, what you have described is how 'circle of friends' normally works. It really depends on the level of difficulty a child has whether their specific needs are discussed with the other children. Usually it's a hand picked group of children, including good social role models and children in need of learning some social strategies. The group are helped to understand that not everyone is confident in social situations and they play social skills games to help them create a bond between the group members. No-one would (or maybe should) disclose your child's difficulties without your permission. For children with high functioning autism such as Aspergers they may me mortified to think others had been discussing them.

With my DS at age 5 he was completely unselfconscious and completely unaware that he was 'different' but unfortunately it was very obvious to everyone else. I had no qualms about disclosing his disability. I has benefitted him enormously. It wouldn't be the right strategy for everyone, including your DS, by the sound of it. But they still did follow a 'circle of friends' strategy.

Lots of typos, I blame the phone!

Claps loudly at babyheave's post*

I think this Circle of Friends thing is great! I wish this had taken place in my DD's school,it might have save about 7 years of sodding bullying where my DD was left in the playground on her own. Luckily she has friends now, and it is a recripicol friendship,no one is her bloody carer! She lacks social skills and sometimes finding her way around, but she sure doesn't need help with lessons.She is deemed a bit "weird" and "geeky", cos she likes sci-fi and horses rather than clothes and makeup, and trashy teen TV.

It makes me very angry when it is assumed by some that helping out a child with ASD,it is assumed that the ASD child is the inferior to be pitied child, where the NT child is caring for an ASD child.

And most don't need bloody specialist help from a SN teacher to get to the bloody lunch hall. Another friendly child stating "come and sit with me at lunch", boosts and ASD kids confidence.

What the bleeding hell is wrong with that?

Aaaaaagh.

Ellen, it was very simelar, it mainly just omitted the bit where the group would talk specifically about my ds. I think I was just uncomfortable with his differences being highlighted while no one else's were. It was obvious what his differences were, what needed pointing out were his similaritys.

Different things are always going to be good for different people, and I'm just thankful that the school were open to changing the programme to suit us

Nice to hear a positive story, bubbles.

ExcellenDS2 has suspected sn (ds3 and ds1 have confirmed sn, ds4 being assessed) and I don;t have issues with it as a reward for kindness if that is something that the school does generally. As a bribe a big no obviously.

ds1 has circle opf friends

Not only did it work for him, it was educational for the kids involved and apaprnelty as school wrote to their parents for their permission linked to a drop in animosity towards ds1 on the yard from other aprents who didn;t realise his Sn

triple winner

Win win win, Peachy!

I want DS to have a circle of friends or a bus stop or anything really to help him find friends, keep friends, play with someone else except the teacher, social skills groups....... anything really - still having to fight with the school for any of this of course

I really wouldn't mind if the children got rewarded for being nice/friendly/helpful.