children being 'bribed' to spend time with autistic child... not sure how I feel about it.

[pingu2209]

This morning my ds was rather pleased as he had been given 'team points' from the teacher for spending time/playing with a child in his class that has autism. The child isn't severely autistic, it is mild-moderate.

I just don't know how I feel about it... sad, puzzled, worried, pleased the school is being 'cleaver' etc. I guess it is better than the child being all alone. But I'm not sure what message this is giving the children. They are all aged 7-9 (mixed year class).

I spoke to one other mum and she said that her dd is also given team points for taking the child into the lunch hall.

I'm not sure whether the child knows that his class peers are given team points when they take him to lunch or play in the playground with him. Certainly the child's mother does not know.

LaWeasel, parental responsibility here is a strawman argument.

We don't know what the school's plan is in the OP's case or who is managing or how. Peer-mediated is a research-based intervention for children and young people with disabilities, it is not a "stop gap" because there isn't a statement.

DS has ASD - I "bribe" children to play with him by inviting them over and making sure they have a great time by buying fun stuff / letting them do stuff they wouldn't usually do / taking them places. It means DS has people to play with that he otherwise perhaps wouldn't.

Don't see that this is massively different.

I think its good to facilitate social situations for children who need it.

Those saying that the school needs to statement the child have never been through the process - it is so so difficult to get the funding. And even if they did - having adult 1:1 at play times would defeat the concept of inclusion - the child would not be benefitting from the free play that the other children are.

I'm not saying it is.

I haven't got any problem at all with what the school is doing. I'm saying it's not enough on it's own to give the boy the best chances. Certainly I have had experience of NT kids being overly helpful - which is lovely of them but not helping whoever they're trying to help with becoming more independent!

And the extra bits they need to be doing they probably won't until there's more specialist help available which it's hard to get funding for without... etc.

Absolutely not blaming the parents, there are a lot of reasons why parents might decide not to go down the paperwork route, and maybe the peer interaction on it's own will be enough, he's still young so even if it doesn't they have time to change their mind. Or maybe they are doing a lot of backstage fighting and just don't want to tell OP about it. Apologies if it seems like I was! I just wanted to explain from the otherside why everything is a lot clearer and generally techniques are more effective and directed post statementing/care/access plans.

This is not a bribe. It's rewarding a child for being kind and helpful. A lot of schools do this kind of thing. It also helps children to be aware of disabilities and that not all children are the dame ad them

You might like to know that this mere cost to our family, finances, health and sanity has got ds a statement that most parents could only dream of and it is still a long way off meeting his needs or providing lunch time support.

I wouldn't support a 1:1 over playtime unless there was a danger element.

But what came to mind for me was maybe some 1:1 or several small group roleplay practice sessions with how we go to lunch.

I think it is a wonderful idea - my dd has sn not autistic but speech and lang problems and very 'young'.

I have just had to bring her home from sports day because she just could not cope with being rubbish at all the sports - she is always being told no she cannot play with other people and she is set apart from her peers. She is charming and well behaved at school but still she is very much alone. It breaks my heart to hear her say 'everything is so hard for me Mummy' 'no one wants to play with me - they say they will play with me another day' etc etc

A couple of children have befriended her - one was hand picked by the teacher because she is an especially thoughtful and kind child. I see where you are coming from but it does teach children about kindness and tolerance and not just following the crowd and ignoring and marginalising a child who is different to them. Until i was in this situation i may have felt the same as you but showing kindness and caring to other children to whom they would not naturally gravitate is not always something children do on their own, in fact we all know children can be quite cruel so they need to learn it

yep. like Star we have"

fought for years (six months to get a statement, allegedly - our 6 months lasted 3.5 years!)
chased educational provision around the country (3 house moves so far, probably more to come)
lost our home (in the sense we now rent)
nearly lost our marriage along the way

and at the end of all that, we have a statement not worth the paper it is written on (although crucially it names the rigth school). lunchtime support is somehtign that most can only dream of - it is so rarely written into a statement.

Sorry have skim read this thread a bit but just wanted to add my experience.

My DS has mild AS but when he started primary he was quite difficult to control and had a hard time adjusting - we then moved schools which was even harder. At the suggestion of our (otherwise useless) LEA, the school implemented something called 'circle of friends' and it sounds like something similar is being done here.

Basically my DS was taken out of class for a few sessions where the teachers talked to the other children about what individuals were good at and what individuals found difficult - offering the children to reflect on their own strengths and weaknesses. Then they talked about my ds and they asked the class to say what he was good at (art, funny etc) and what he struggled with ( shouts when standing in line, runs off etc) So the teachers asked for volunteers to help my DS with the things he finds difficult. This then become his ' circle of friends' DS was then brought in for one session where he was then included in the discussion.

I cannot begin to tell you what a HUGE difference this made to DS and very quickly too. Im sure the children got house points for participating but then again, they deserved it. But you know what, this didn't last long - as they grew to understand DS and as DS become more included in the school (and therefore happier and calmer) they went from that role to the role of being genuine friends which for an autistic child is INCREDIBLY difficult.

He's nearly 12 now and it's his last week at this school. I am incredibly sad he is leaving such a nice bunch of kids who genuinely care for him and enjoy his company. We wouldn't have got here without the intervention and you know what, I'm sure once those kids are older they will look back and put the pieces together about their friend in primary school that sometimes did odd things. They all have incredibly positive attitudes about it all and I know the parents of those children have all been happy for them to participate and proud.

Yes, your children may be involved to some extent re: managing behaviour but there is probably a lot going on behind the scenes that you don't see that is part of the bigger picture. A less disruptive child in class is better for your child in the long run too.

'I just wanted to explain from the otherside why everything is a lot clearer and generally techniques are more effective and directed post statementing/care/access plans'

From what side?

FWIW this 'specialist help' we fought with all our might to get for our son is so appalling we have considered getting rid of his diagnosis just to get rid of them. Just because it is there, doesn't mean it works or is worth the effort. But don't just take my word for it. Most teachers resent outside 'specialists' with too little time and no overall perspective, coming in and dictating to them.

LaWeasal: without lunchtime/playtime support my dd cannot integrate at all

she has never been even close to ebing in danger/a danger to others, but she does need support (and properly trained support at that) to enable her to even approach other children.

having a blanket policy of "no 1:1 unless there is a danger element" woudl leave ehr floundering for all social time.

bloody hell silverfrog - we are just starting the statementing process - all of it is just heartbreaking when you child is on the outside of everything looking in

Rosie, thank for sharing your DS's story. Circle of friends, done properly, benefits all, it's a win win.

My DS with ASD is also nearly 12 and due to start secondary in Sept. Only 3 of his classmates will be going with him, and they all put his name down as a friend they wanted in their tutor group. He doesn't really play with the rest of the class, but they have all been absolutely lovely with him, and all credit to them. One girl said that she didn't want DS to be on his own.

There is nothing wrong with him being a buddy like they have in some schools. It is good for both sn/nt kids to be around each other and have peers of their own age not just the adults involved in helping them

LaWeasel, if you need a statement to have the level of help you are indicating is appropriate, then the school is mismanaging its funds in quite a serious way.

I haven't read the entire thread, but my 9 year old DS has ASD, I wish his teacher would encourage the other children to be kind to him or play with him, because it breaks my heart that he knows he's different and that when he asks the other children in the class to play with him they say no.

He is so alone at playtime and lunchtime although integrates well in the classroom because he has 1:1 assistance in there.

Isn't it interesting EllenJane that kids are just so much more open and tolerant than parents are about this... until that is knocked out of them.

Rosie, fantastic to hear that a Circle of Friends intervention did so much good for your son.

That's very true. Nearly all authorities now include money for SEN in their budget and high incidenct cases (of which ASD is considered as one) are expected to be funded from within this. That includes TA time.

Our son has a good, solid, watertight statement giving him 32.5 hours TA support a week, in a bloody good school, and I would still give an arm for someone to bribe other kids into being with him at break and lunchtime. Given a chance, he's witty, kind, entertaining and a pleasure to know, BUT he can't, just can't, go up to a group and slot into a conversation. He's also, as he gets older, very conscious of being 'different' and terrified of being given the brush-off, so he's still more reluctant to make the attempt.

As someone said further up the thread, what a child wants is friends, not to stand by their TA all break time.

Alicia - is there any way you could talk to the school about the possibility of implementing something like circle of friends (info here: www.leics.gov.uk/circle_of_friends.pdf) I know it's tough for schools on tight budgets (although as mentioned, many will have some SEN funding anyway) but I'm sure some of this could be worked into an IEP meeting or somesuch? We always took the view that my DS academic work would improve if we improved his socialising and happiness and often included that as a big thing within his annual review.

The children are rarely the problem. So long as they have it explained to them that X or Y has difficulty with some of the things they find easy, be it physical, social or learning at an early enough age, they will be tolerant, forgiving of odd behaviour, unconcerned about apparent favouritism. Give them the information and in 90% of cases the children will be fine. Their parents, however....

Sorry
www.leics.gov.uk/circle_of_friends.pdf

And that's the point - I'm not a specialist of any kind! I'm just someone who worked in a school, with both NT/SN&SEN kids, I know a fair bit about some SN/SEN because of that, but I'm also woefully ignorant at other times. In a mainstream school there will always, sometimes, be people making decisions who don't know all the details. With a care plan that is reduced so much.

It was a decent school, the care plans were great. Because the specialist is not always there when something completely random happens that you would never expect normally and you have no idea what to do the care plan and (if available trained specialist staff who you can consult with) are your bible.

I had one child with physical SN, they didn't need a statement anyway, but they needed parent to work with us and develop a care plan. But parent would not give us or the teachers ANY advice about their child. It took a year for everyone to work out the limits of what this child could do and where we could push them to improve and start making progress... at which point they moved.

That experience that I had in RL is so alien when I come on here are read how bloody hard people fight for their kids and to have their disabilities taken into account and when I remember the parents of other kids I worked with who were exhausted and tried to remember anything that might help and put huge amounts of detail into their care plans.

I think I have wandered a bit off topic.

But the point is, it's a mainstream school not everyone knows what they're doing with regard to SEN/SN in exact detail, best chance is always a care plan. And I have huge empathy with parents that are struggling to get them or to get them put in place.