children being 'bribed' to spend time with autistic child... not sure how I feel about it.

[pingu2209]

This morning my ds was rather pleased as he had been given 'team points' from the teacher for spending time/playing with a child in his class that has autism. The child isn't severely autistic, it is mild-moderate.

I just don't know how I feel about it... sad, puzzled, worried, pleased the school is being 'cleaver' etc. I guess it is better than the child being all alone. But I'm not sure what message this is giving the children. They are all aged 7-9 (mixed year class).

I spoke to one other mum and she said that her dd is also given team points for taking the child into the lunch hall.

I'm not sure whether the child knows that his class peers are given team points when they take him to lunch or play in the playground with him. Certainly the child's mother does not know.

I have spoken to the mum of X and asked about statementing and she told me the school don't think he is bad enough to require a statement. However, our school are known to not want to go through the statementing process because it is a lot of work and our LEA are notorious at not giving statements, so it would be a lot of work for nothing.

Also the school have said to her that X would not get any more support if he was statemented as the school recognise X needs and there is a TA in the class pretty much all the time. Although it isn't 1:1 a hell of a lot of support is given. It is just the TA is not there at lunch or in the playground, which is why the school encourage children to help X.

I have explained to her that the statement will legally protect X so that the school (or secondary school) can't take away what is currently given. But I would say that both the mum and dad are on the autistic spectrum themselves and are not that 'able' to push for these things.

Sorry, I meant to say wouldn't care!

His mum should press for a statement, becuase this then means he will get extra help in how to deal with social situations and how to manage his emotions and how to interact with people. He won't just "pick it up" due to his condition.
I know as AS boy who is "managed" so he doesn't disrupt the class but he isn't recieving anything that will help HIM. i.e. he needs lessons in how to get into lunch or how to ask for a seat, simple rules he can take in and then apply in realy life. If they fudge round the issue by having a child do the work the AS boy won't have a chance of integrating.

I feel a bit strongly here as my DD has ended up as the de facto "manager" of an AS child in her class as she is naturally very kind and intuitive in how she deals with people, and this annoys me somewhat as she misses out as she is managing him, and I think he is missing out as no one is giving the really social and emotional help he needs as he grows older. His speech is poor and she "interprets" him for others and I sometimes want to yell "get him some speech therapy" which he would really really benefit from. DD leaves the class soon, and I do wonder what will happen to him then. I feel he's been sold short by the school not addressing his actual needs, rather than just getting his behaviour so it isn't disrupting them too much in class.

To go back to the original OP, I don't think what they are doing is bad per se, but it is not sufficient. He also needs help from professional therapists to teach him social skills so he has a chance of one day doing these things for himself.

Miggsie - are you sure that the child your dd so benevolently helps isn't getting any external help? In order to get an AS diagnosis you do need SALT assessment.

Pingu - do you live in Nottinghamshire?

Also, Miggsie, your post suggests that your DD gets nothing out of it and just loses out from having to "manage" the other child. Loses out on what? Hanging out with "normal" children?

Do you really think that a child with AS isn't capable of giving something back to their friend? That a relationship between two children when one has AS must be one sided with the "normal" child giving and the AS child taking?

Maybe your DD enjoys their company or likes them. It is possible for children with AS to be liked and for other children to enjoy spending time with them you know.

The best social skills therapy always involves good peer group role models. I think it's a win win situation, the child with social skills problems has help with friendships and the other children are shown how to be caring and inclusive and that helping those who need it is a social skill in itself.

I would be grateful if this was being done for my DS I have to say. I don't think it is wrong to teach kindness and reward it. I think AS children like my DS get very isolated and if this works as a way of breaking down the barriers then that is great. There is only so much a teacher can do.

Thre was some recent research to back this up which showed that NT children are more accepting of SN children if SN children are introduced into groups by other children rather than by adults. In other words, all the other children are going to be more inclusive of a SN child if they are already playing with an NT child than if the teacher tries to place the child with a group directly. It won't be an instantaneous acceptance and will take time but on the hand the child won't be rejected without being given a chance.

There is nothing wrong with rewarding kind behaviour.

But I agree with what Miggsie is saying - the child is not being helped if no one is helping him to learn about social interaction so he can manage by himself and have the best chance of fulfilling his potential.

However unless the parents push to change this (and seemingly they don't want to right now) you can't really do anything about it.

I don't think there's anything wrong with rewarding the children's kindness.

Niecie's post reminded me of a conversation I had with my mum recently. She works in a secondary school and said that she can think of several kids (ASD) who've spent every break and every lunch time of their school life in the library or 'helping' a teacher and have never spent it with a 'friend'. She said it breaks her heart to see and feels it's an area that inclusion hasn't been able to successfully address.

Anything that has a chance of preventing this has got to be a good idea

There's nothing wrong with it. My DD won a kindness award for her continued friendship and social support of a child with many speial needs...it teaches children that for some people, a litte extra love and support is needed in order to help them thrive

This thread has made me a bit cross.

People with disabilities are a part of society, end of story.

There is a lot of research literature that peer-mediated intervention, where peers are supported to interact with and support children with disabilities, reaps benefits for both parties. What is most striking about this is that your ds, OP, was pleased by this development. So why are you sad, puzzled and worried? What is sad, puzzling and worrying about your child learning that his school values the time he chooses to spend reaching out to another human being who is struggling to be included in school? I would be very proud of my son and pleased that the school recognised just how valuable decency is and were communicating this to him.

I am disgusted when I hear that parents "complain" to schools about their children being "made" to be nice to children with disabilities and include them where possible in their play. It is as much a social skill for the child who is playing to learn how to include children who are differently abled as the child
who is being played with. They will grow up to work with people with disabilities. They may end up serving them, whether that's as an advocate, as a lawyer, as a doctor or as a shop assistant.

In answer to this point:
"I guess it is better than the child being all alone. But I'm not sure what message this is giving the children. They are all aged 7-9 (mixed year class)."

Social responsibility is one answer. Social understanding and social skill are also supported. It can be hard for children to know how to play with and include children with disabilities as their behaviour can be unpredictable and sometimes frightening. This can lead to a vicious cycle where the child with disability is excluded and the child who is non-disabled spends so little time with people who are different that their fear grows as the gap widens. Schools need to support children who don't have disabilities to understand and value difference and seek to include people with disabilities just as much as they need to support children with disabilities to be included. Two sides of the same coin, here.

I can see no harm in this situation where your son felt proud and rewarded for spending time with this child. What harm do you see in it?

OP I think you sound very judgey and asumme this is all because the child has ASD. Would it really be an issue to you and other parents if your LO where asked to help a "shy" child.
Its teaching young people that its great to be supportive, yes there are rewards to being kind and also means the child with ASD, doesnt always require an adult. Seriously I would not want my DDs to always have an adult with them, they love being with other children but dont always know how to be social, but you know what teaches them that?? Being with other children, not standing there with their TA.

ASD children might have difficulties with following other childrens lead, but they still make good friends, and ceetainly relationships are two way.

The parents at your school sound like idiots, just like the one at mine that told me "all children with SN should be in a Special school because they take too much time from the teacher"!!

'However unless the parents push to change this (and seemingly they don't want to right now) you can't really do anything about it.'

Have you ANY idea what it takes to 'push to change this' for a child with moderate-mild ASD.

I can tell you that it has cost us nearly £30k, and will another £14k to go to tribunal again in December. It has cost me my job, it has cost us our house. It has cost us humiliation and taunting and a dubious child protection visit plus endless paperwork for our defence and meetings about meetings about bloody meetings.
It has cost our us our relationship with the school and any chance of finding out what is going on.
It hasn't YET cost us our marriage but it does many.

when you spend years pushing, sometimes you just cant anymore :(

I know very well that it is bloody difficult, I have worked with lots of kids in mainstream schools with different kinds of SN/SEN. I know the parents that push have an extremely rough time of it, and have helped when there DLA is randomly removed for no reason. And others who can't get a firm diagnosis because there are so many issues going on at once everything is getting confused. I do get it.

But I've also worked with parents who just didn't want to go down the route of statementing/support arrangements, and whether I agreed with them or not that was is totally up to them and appears from what OP has said in the later posts how these parents feel.

It's not a parents' job to manage social interactions at school. It's the school's job. The parents shouldn't have to push for it, but as posters above have outlined quite frequently they find themselves in a situation where they do and at great cost to themselves.

With respect, anyone who thinks this particular issue is the responsibility of those who parent disabled children knows very little about inclusion in education or society.

Any of us could find ourselves disabled tomorrow. A chance virus, a car accident, a fall could change everything for any one of us and for any one of our children. It's easy to think disability has nothing to do with you when you have no experience of it but it is hugely common and it could be you or your child having to battle with a society that seems to think disability is always someone else's problem.

Don't think about what the child with a disability "gets out of it", think of how far we all have to travel to have a decent society and how we can all contribute.

I don't mind DD being kind to the boy, but I do mind her being used as a substitute for proper help, and also, she is moving on, what happens then? She stays with him rather than playing with other children. Yes, it's nice that she is kind but she does say "oh, I'll be with X again" not her other friends and she knows the others are not doing what she is, and he's getting dependent on her, and that's a big burden for a 7yo. She gets him books, sorts out where he sits, gets him to stop poking other children, and he shrieks if they are not in the same group and he clings to her in a situation where he is afraid. I do not think DD should do this on a full time basis.

However, yes, it is a brilliant learning curve for DD to understand there are children who are "different" and to learn tolerance and kindness but she should not have become his default carer like that. I think he's going to miss her so much, but she is leaving the class and moving on and no one is preparing him for that. She was ill a couple of weeks ago and missed class and he was distraught apparently and kicked off big time. This is why I don't like the fact she is looking after him, it isn't helping him long term.

BTW he is diagnosed ASD but his parents won't statement because of "stigma".

Honest to god, what do you think a 'statement' will bring this boy.

Come on let's bust some myths!

It is much more difficult though, when you are the temporary carers of someone with disabilities whose parents just don't want to talk to you about it. They don't want to have a plan, or a method or talk about what things need to be worked on or why. It comes across as a bit denialish and I understand that.

But it means you have to start again, getting to know the child and work out what might help and why and sometimes you will miss things that matter because you don't know all the details of what is going on.

So this is a child with no statement, the school have their own method for helping social integration, which is great, no problems with that. But they maybe haven't thought it through to the end... what if X needs lunch and there is no one there to help? That's another side that needs working on and probably a different approach. And without a clear plan it probably won't.

Oh wow, Miggsie, you "don't mind" your child being kind. How... tolerant of you.

I appreciate your point that the situation needs to be managed but I have trouble believing that it is playing out as you say it is. I very much doubt she is a child's "default carer". Has anyone given her the roles you suggest? How do you know? Is it that she sits with him and this has evolved? Is she prevented from playing with other children and if so, by whom?

Ideally peers are provided with training and support and there is a rota system where peer-mediated or buddy systems are used.

The fact that a child with a disability missed your child is not an indicator of dependence necessarily. Many children with autism, for example, find any change difficult e.g. if a clock changed position on the wall they might become distraught. It does not prove that your child is the main carer.

Have you spoken to school about how much time your daughter spends with this child? If it is as you say you should ask them to give you written information about how much time she is spending with the child and what she is doing. I find it hard to believe it is as you say.