AIBU to wonder why any woman would identify herself as....

[seeker]

.....not a feminist?

"SybilBeddows
wow, people do talk a load of old shit about the feminist section, don't they?

did you know we also make our sons wear dresses and won't let them play with toy cars?
(and that's just the liberals - the radicals abandon them on hillsides to be eaten by wolves.)"

You made me snort coffee.

NeededAGoodLaughAfterThisMorningsNewsTiggaxx

2 wone every week in the UK are killed by their partners.

'I don't think they are daft enough to say it out loud'

well quite, we don't normally talk about the wolves either because due to the patriarchal oppression of the phallocratic so-called justice system in this country we would probably get in trouble or something

"Apparently, because I have never believed that being female has stopped me doing things that I want to do, I don't know what I am talking about because I only want to do what I want to do because subconsciously, my expectations have been limited by patriarchy. Utter nonsense."

That may well be utter nonsense in your case. But it is most definitely NOT nonsense in the case of a lot of other women.

swallowedAfly - This is a post in the feminist section:

start of quote

sakura Wed 15-Jun-11 15:33:47
I think it marriage reinforces patriarchy because women are divided from each other and their energies/time/emotion goes into supporting men instead of each other. You only have to look at the happiness statistics!

1. Married men (happiest)
2. Single women (second happiest)
3. Married women (not quite so happy)
4. Single men (very fragile, depressed and much more likely to be in jail than married men)

So without a doubt, marriage supports men... and it only supports women insofar as patriarchy has made single women's life difficult, especially if they're mothers.. then they get doubly punished

end of quote

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/1234046-Mothers-fathers-children-and-the-family-heirarchy?pg=6

That is exactley what people are talking about. If you read through this thread, it speaks of some men behaving in a way that is not acceptable. It goes on to be argue against the entire idea of marriage being wrong. That woman should live alone. That is what people are talking about being "radfems".

The whole point about feminism is that it is about individual women -and women in general. So just because an individual women has never been held back by her gender, that doesn't mean that many others have.

There was another quote on the same thread about the fact that women should not live with men. They should have a lover pop in every now and then to satisfy them. That is insulting. It is sexist. It is saying that men do not have the right to raise there children.

We are all aware of domestic abuse. We are all aware that you are more likely to be attacked by someone you know. But it is still no escuse for deciding that all men should be treated like a walking dildo, which is exactly what the sentiment is suggesting.

Domestic abuse by women also happens. In fact, my father left because my mother stabbed him and threw a pan of boiling beans over him. I don't know if it is, but you are going to respond with it being far less common. But that means that we are being silent about it because it is less common. This is not equality.

seeker - you see, that's the problem with these threads when they come up. People express some genuine reasons why they have trouble identifying with feminism sometimes, and they get told they're wrong. Their concerns are brushed aside as invalid, which is hardly going to inspire them to post more often in the feminist topic.

It certainly isn't the entire feminist section that puts people off. I've read some very wise posts from very wise women. But some of the more shouty and feisty posters have odd ideas like that men are some kind of weird creatures whose only real aim in life is putting their penises in women.

There is definitely one poster in the feminism section who regularly says women should never live with men and you know who she is.

It is a horrible and shocking statistic that two women a week are killed by their partners. But telling women to avoid men is not the answer. Challenging social norms and gender stereotypes is. How will be ever get equality if we view the struggle as a war of men vs women? It shouldn't be a war, men as individuals shouldn't be demonised (unless they are abusers, of course). It should be about showing men how to change things to suit everyone better.

I'm not expressing this well, but I hope you understand what I mean.

Annie, I think you expressed that brilliantly.

Putting the feminist cause across as a war between men and women will never work, because if men are the enemy, that's your husband, your sons, your father. How can anyone ask you to do battle with them? I'd say the majority of women would have a problem with that view. Surely better to encourage women to join in with the men in their lives to ensure equality for everyone?

If I hear a man expressing a sexist view, I ask him to think about what he has said in terms of his wife, his daughters. This man isn't the enemy, his upbringing is. So the ideal to me, is to try to change his frame of reference wrt women.

Again, expressing it badly, sorry.

the problem is that people see feminism as an homogeneous whole. Nothing is EVER a homogeneous whole. I'm a left wing woolly liberal but that doesn't mean to say I agree with ALL left wing woolly liberal ideals. People who broadly believe in the same ideology will disagree with various aspects that others believe in, it's what makes life interesting.

Stating you aren't a feminist because x amount of people believe y is shopping at Sweeping Generalisations R Us IMO.

ProudToBeAFeministAndAwareOfTheIronyOfTheLastSatementTiggaxx

Some remarks here, from readers who've ventured onto the Feminism board and promptly run away, are being dismissed by regulars (in a diluted version of) the way they are over there.

The views of our Feminism stalwarts are extreme by most standards. Some argue for women to live in single-sex communities; the proposition tends to be framed as "All women should". Some say the patriarchy must be "smashed" - which, rationally, means widespread anarchy and the disablement of powerful men. There's a lot of assumption that women can do everything better than men - and also, bizarrely, that women are never violent or unfair.

I was an activist in the 70s and early 80s. Some of the older feminists I met were pretty scary; they alienated my friends and me with their cruel, nitpicking criticisms. To some, then as well as now, there was only one 'right' way to be a feminist. Our insistence on wearing what we liked was seen as traitorous - what price freedom for women, huh?

With the benefit of hindsight, I can see how some of those older women tried to point up our own oppressed ideas; they were right. But their message was entirely lost amongst the raging of the extreme. This is what depresses me most about our Feminism forum: you need a tough hide to get through the thorns to the roses. Why should you have to?

Just refreshed before sending and seen this from AnnieL: "But telling women to avoid men is not the answer. Challenging social norms and gender stereotypes is." Surely that is the way to "smash" the patriarchy! There seems to be sadly little discussion on what to challenge, how to challenge or even why it's important. Thinking like a victim and hating the menz simply isn't good enough.

Sorry, this has been a bit of a brain-dump. Posting anyway

What stats, swallow? There were no stats included and no link.

So how does marriage stand at the moment? If it does devalue a woman's happiness, and you are saying that it is no good for you to do, then you are saying precisely that.

And what about the part about marriage simpley meaning the woman waste their time supporting men when they should be supporting only eachother?

Can't deny that ideas floating around the feminist section are that children should be raised by a cluster of women, and not best with Mummy and Daddy...implying that really Dad's are as little out moded and not as good as a group of women. In fact I was told it was pretty shameful to suggest that a chikd is best, all things being equal, with a Mum and a Dad..

AnnieLobeseder - I think you expressed yourself very well and you have conveyed my thoughts much better than I have!

I know seeker that not everybody has equality, I am not denying that. I can see that women have something to fight against. What I am saying that there is an assumption that we are all downtrodden and held back and that we are victims and that I am wrong for not being a victim. I don't want to be a victim because I think is the wrong mindset with which to fight your corner. You are already beaten before you have even begun. I don't believe we should be looking for discrimination where there is none like me being told that I am so indoctinated by the patriarchy that I don't know my own mind. I have been told I don't know my own mind by men (obviously I laugh in their faces and take no notice), I don't need it from women too.

I was put off feminism when younger by my rampantly feminist mother. She fit all the stereotypes... bitter, divorced.... ranting at police dramas for being feminist when I was a teenager and was watching cos I liked the fit actors playing coppers... how very dare she spoil good police dramas by going on about how sexist the detective was. I'm older now though and share some of the feminist ideology now.

Feminist mother had no time for me being a housewife. She thought I should be back at work. She talks about my children as if they're a mere inconvenience to my fantastic career I'm (not) having. I rebeled by being utterly directionless and have failed at my last two paid jobs, but I do like being a mum. So shoot me!

some women have a narrow view of femininsts and dont like the stigma that comes with it, e.g. butch like schoolyard stuff

Swallow, there are other conclusions to draw. For example, that woman with mentl health problems tend to try to find a partner where as men with mental health problems do not. It would give you an explanation for that part. Conclusions can be drawn to show anything you want.

Assuming that the need for childcare is somehow a problem for women alone is itself being sexist. It is saying that the children are the women's responsibity.

How would you want the "patriachy" to respond to this? Free chilcare? Or perhaps not give children any holidays? I don't have a solution for these issues. Perhaps if you do you could form a political party that has all the answers?

Radicals and fem-suprems DO exist in real life, but they make up a TINY fraction. They are just more 'visible' to others. Real feminists don't shout and scream. In fact, you'll barely know we're there. Honest. I move in circles who describe themselves as very political and feminist, and all of them cringe when they see the man-haters and the delusional twerps with a victim complex.

I'd say 99% of feminists are reasonable individuals who seek simply to root out the tenacious gender stereotypes, ill-informed opinions, and unfair treatment that still persists in out 'modern' culture. The modern feminist movement sees society as the victim, not the poor little ladies. Sexism isn't over, and it will persist nicely in a culture where women are scared to pursue a feminist agenda for fear of being tarred with the 'angry victim nutter' brush.

Why do people who don't like labels label themselves as people who don't like labels?