to think that there are too many selfish couples like this ruining people's meals with a screaming baby.

[theinet]

Company director Clive Merrifield, 45, was enjoying an evening meal with partner Idalina Lucas when he politely suggested Billy West, 20, and his girlfriend put the wailing seven-month-old to bed.
West approached the couple's neighbouring table, pulled a bottle of white wine from their ice bucket and brought it down at 'full force' onto Mr Merrifield's skull in front of other customers.
The victim was left with a 'four inch ragged scar' on his scalp following the brutal assault at Parveen, an Indian Restaurant in Theberton Street, Islington, north London.
The former soldier fears the wound makes him look like a thug and is anxious about his image with employees and clients, Blackfriars Crown Court heard.
Karen Robinson, prosecuting, said the clash took place shortly after 10pm on October 9 last year after the baby had been crying for up to half an hour.
West was sitting at a table with his young family and another man, and Mr Merrifield and Ms Lucas were at the next.
'The baby was crying and the lady was seen to get up and down and make moves in an effort to comfort the baby,' said the barrister.
'It was described as consistent and persistent and went on for about 15 to 30 minutes.
'Other customers were looking in the direction of the baby during the course of this period.
'Mr Merrifield said he had had a couple of drinks but describes himself as sober.'
The prosecutor said Mr Merrifield became 'frustrated by the crying and put his head in his hands', and told Ms Lucas: 'I've had enough.'
The victim stood up, approached West's party and said: 'It's a quiet restaurant. We're trying to have a quiet dinner and your baby's not stopped crying.
'Maybe your baby is tired?'
Witnesses described his tone as 'polite and reasonable', but nontheless West's girlfriend held the child aloft and said sarcastically: 'It's a baby.'
Mr Merrifield suggested the tot 'ought to be in bed', prompting West and the second man to stand up and invite him to settle the matter 'outside'.
Staff asked them to leave the restaurant and West was ushered towards the door.
But they 'continued to remonstrate with staff' and CCTV shows West returning to Mr Merrifield, who had stayed sitting down.
'He took a glass wine bottle from its ice bucket and hit him to the back of the head, smashing it on impact,' said the prosecutor.
A witness described West taking the weapon 'high and behind his head and taking aim, bringing it down with full force'.
Mr Merrifield said he 'felt a blow' to the back of his head which left him 'shocked, stunned and disorientated'.
West simply walked to the door and left the premises.
The vicitm was taken to hospital where he was given an emergency x-ray and 16 stitches.

I'd rather put up with a baby crying in a restaurant than the table next to me having a between-course smoke, especially when one of them has a disgusting cigar. That always puts me off my food - but because it's an adult activity, it's apparently ok. Obvoiusly not any more, since the laws changed - but I had numerous meals out spoilt for me by the lack of consideration from smokers, whose course breaks didn't necessarily coincide with mine.

As far as the wind up merchant OP is concerned - YABU to use this as an example of selfish parents of babies in restaurants. This is an extreme situation, has very little to do with selfish attitudes and a lot more to do with psychopathic tendencies.

I think 10pm in a restaurant with a baby is not a good idea, unless it is asleep in pram or pushchair. I put it down to young parents who do not understand babies need routine, eg to be put in cot before this time!
I think I would be annoyed if a baby was crying non-stop next to me in an Indian restaurant while I was tucking into my balti!

What a horrific thing to happen to Mr Merrifield.

Just popped back in to say that I too have had more meals spoiled by inconsiderate, rude and drunk adults than babies but of course it's far easier to look down on new parents and judge and demand they leave that it is for adults who are behaving atrociously.

The OP is winding us all up and her thread title has zilch to do with the news story which centred on two thugs who probably have previous anyway.

Carry on with the debate but do be aware that this is probably a deliberate wind up thread.

What so many others have said: the issue is that the thug was a thug. Mr. thug is probably inconsiderate, volatile and downright dangerous when in charge of his car, his wheelie-bin and his mobile 'phone. He sounds like the type who batters people for asking him to turn down his i-pod - the issue there would be not the rightness or wrongness of i-pods in public places but how Mr. thug responds to others sharing that public space. As it is here.

Aggressive, horrible people - if only there was a clear curfew for them ...

I disagree, Hammy, that my opinion makes me selfish. Babies crying don't bother me. I also fail to understand why it's a big deal. That makes me selfish?

I have not said that people must feel the way I feel. I have not said what I used to do when my children were babies. I have simply contributed to the discussion with my own pov, which is to accept and understand babies.

Since selfish means an excessive or exclusive concern with oneself, then I would view people who have a tantrum because others aren't falling in line with their expectations or desires as selfish, rather than those who are tolerant and forgiving of noise from others and accept that everyone has a right to be in a public place and that noise is to be expected.

Not feeling it's a big deal - selfish? Not understanding why people seem to not be able to deal with babies crying - selfish? Feeling that this culture is intolerant of babies - selfish? Unless I am misunderstanding what selfish means, I am not sure what you mean.

Rubarbo - in response to your queries:

Have I asked other diners to stop talking into their mobile phones in restaurants so loudly I can hear their whole convo? - yes, or at least I have asked staff to ask them to do so.
Have I told birthday parties to stop laughing and singing happy birthday in restaurants? - no, because laughter is a positive noise and "Happy Birthday" only lasts for a minute.
Have I asked crowded tables to stop talking so loudly in restaurants? - yes, or at least I have asked staff to ask them to do so, if they are being so loud they are disrupting the enjoyment of others.

And yes, I am "seriously suggesting that couples should leave their meals and go just so you can carry on enjoying yours", if their baby's screaming is preventing others from enjoying their meal - it's called basic consideration for others. If you are in a family restuarant at 6pm, maybe a bit more leeway is fair enough. But if you are eating at 10pm, in what was presumably not a family restaurant, then it is unreasonable to allow your child to ruin others' meals.

I agree, animula unfortunately he was allowed to breed.

"But on the subject of babies making noise and disturbing a meal...
Babies cry.

I truly don't understand the problem.

I have never found it a problem to eat a meal while a baby cries. I am eating. A baby is crying. It has yet to make me miss my mouth or rendered me incapable of chewing and swallowing. "

GOing out for a meal is about more than the food. It's about spending quality time with your partner. Squealing babies spoil this. It isn't fair for people to have the small amount of time available to them ruined.

As I said, restaurants should clearly display whether they are family friendly or not. That way there can be no complaints.

"rather than those who are tolerant and forgiving of noise from others and accept that everyone has a right to be in a public place and that noise is to be expected."

If I pitched up in a restaurant with a loud klaxon going off every few minutes, I suspect people may question my right to be in the place quite quickly, even those same tolerant and forgiving people :)

A baby is not an irrevocable licence to be a prat or a prima donna either.

I think a restaurant at 10pm is a perfectly good place for a baby.
As long as he doesn't scream the entire time. But that is what breasts were designed for. Which is one of the reason why a restaurant at 10pm is fine for babies - because otherwise the mother couldn't be there and that would be OUTRAGEOUS! Mothers of newborns need good evenings out with good food and wine even more than anyone else. What they don't need however is to be married to thuggish twats with an over-developed sense of entitlement.

"GOing out for a meal is about more than the food. It's about spending quality time with your partner" Really ? Just your partner? Are restaurants couple-only places? How dull.... Some of the best meals I've eaten out have been with people other than DH - sometimes with my children.

A babys cry - It's designed to be the most annoying thing to hear, so why would it be acceptable so late in the evening and where people are trying to have a relaxing meal out.

Take baby to the Harvester at 6pm.

The man who smashed a bottle over another man's head would probably have done it if he (the second man) had looked at him the wrong way. The fact it was because of a baby crying is irrelevant.

However, there are some parents who are selfish enough to expect everyone else to put up with their baby crying/screaming while they eat their meal. Parents who want to take their babies to restaurants should be prepared to take baby outside until baby has calmed down, or even take them home if they don't.

Wrt the continent, yes, there probably would be people willing to take and try to calm a baby while the parents eat but then the parents would probably be willing to accept the help. Over here it's more likely to be different. How many threads have there been on mn alone along the lines of "A pensioner touched my baby's cheek with her finger and contaminated her. How dare she." Some parents are way too precious about strangers touching their little darlings

I can't believe how many people seem to think it ok to stay and finish their meal when their baby is crying.

Yes babies do cry, children scream too. That doesn't make it acceptable to share that with the rest of the restaurant. Ds cried constantly as a baby and as a small child he was loud and restless. I spent more time outside restaurants than I did inside with him. That is what you get when you are a parent.

Before anyone says Italy, Spain or Greece. We are from the first and last and family friendly means you keep your children under control and manage your baby's crying so it doesn't take over the whole reataurant.

There is family friendly and there is selfish.

"GOing out for a meal is about more than the food. It's about spending quality time with your partner. Squealing babies spoil this. It isn't fair for people to have the small amount of time available to them ruined."

That rather depends on whether you feel that 'squealing' babies spoil a night out and ruin people's evening, does it not? You are assuming that that must be the case. Baby crying = ruined evening.

My point was that for me, it is not the case. It doesn't. Also, I personally think it would be nice if people didn't view babies and children as a pain to be around unless they're silent and accepted children and children's noise as normal and not a problem. Apparently, that makes me selfish.

Of course, if you do feel that a baby crying ruins your evening, then you will want them to not be around you. I get that.

But to start from the pov that a baby crying must mean a ruined evening for everyone, present it as a fact, is flawed.

(and no, my children are not babies and no, when they were, I didn't have them out and about at 10pm and no, I did not leave them screaming and screaming. In case you think that I feel this way because I like to let my babies scream)

Evilclown: "I can't believe how many people seem to think it ok to stay and finish their meal when their baby is crying."

I somewhat agree, actually, because I think that babies being sad is something you should do something about, for them. If your baby is upset in the restaurant, you go outside to calm them down. Don't leave the poor thing to cry louder and louder.

The impression I get from the Daily Mail article, is that the thug in question was just leaving his partner to get on with it, while he had his meal...

"But to start from the pov that a baby crying must mean a ruined evening for everyone, present it as a fact, is flawed."

Except that there are so many people here clearly not happy with babies howling in resaturants. Assuming the people on MN are a representative sample of the population (in fcat these are all parents - who are probably more tolerant), then in fact your counter argument is flawed :)

Rhubarb0 "because of no babysitters?"

Should the baby not be in bed at this point? Is it advisable to take a baby to a film with lots of swearing and sex scenes? I certainly wouldn't do it.

Flawed? How so? If there is even one person saying they don't feel that way, then it is not accurate to present the argument that everyone feels that way and to present as fact the argument that a crying baby must mean a ruined evening. For everyone.

I'm someone. I don't feel that way. Therefore everyone does not feel that way. It may be that a majority of people who happen to be posting on this thread feel that way, but that's not everyone, not everyone on mumsnet and not everyone generally.

It doesn't bother me that much either. Given the choice I'd rather the baby didn't cry for prolonged periods but it wouldn't ruin my evening. The drunk woman at the table behind us,when DH and I last went for a meal, that kept laughing in a really irritating manner (very high pitched and VERY loud) did her best, in fact almost certainly did it better than a baby would have. Because she could have stopped if she wanted to. And the jokes weren't that good. I know because DH and I had to listen to them all....

Have eaten in that very restaurant on a number of occasions.

Last time I was there, there was a group of lads having a meal and one guy got up, started F'ing and blinding...and upturned their table.

People deserve to be able to have a nice meal out in the evening in PEACE!

What were the couple doing out with their baby at 10pm....when he/she was clearly tired/upset??? So selfish...and I wonder what the guy was like at home. Was he abusive towards mother and child!?

I for one am bothered by the sound of a crying baby...ALWAYS!

Whether it's in the street...or in a shop or a restaurant.

It's a natural instinct to be concerned by a baby crying....or not?
I always want to know it's ok...it's being looked after...it's not distressed.

In the incident described the restaurant should have stepped in...I guess they were more concerned about takings rather than to ruffle the feathers of the couple.

Oh yes, I agree. But that's a different kind of bothered, isn't it? - Oh, poor baby, sounds upset / tired / hungry, poor little thing...

I certainly feel that way, I would imagine most parents do. (I hope they do anyway )

The other kind of bothered - damn crying baby ruining my evening I want to relax, bloody thing screaming why don't they leave, that noise is driving me crazy...

I understand feeling sorry for the baby. I feel sorry for them when they're crying. You want to give them a big cuddle, don't you?

I don't understand it when people say that they are feeling cross and that their evening is somehow ruined by a crying baby.