to think America is a frightening place to be a woman right now?

[BornSicky]

Pregnant women facing murder charges

This is bullying at a nightmarish level.

I find it foul and despicable that women are being villified in such a way. How did the Christian right-wing become so powerful?

Truly, truly scary.

How can these bad laws (including the new "inspections" (read closures) of abortion clinics in Kansas) come to be passed? How can they be stopped?

A pregnant woman isn't mentally ill larrygrylls. And we don't have conscription any more either.

I really don't think that the abortion limit was imposed in order to keep women in their place. It could well be simply a happy side effect, to a certain mindset. But again, it's a balancing of rights. It's placing one persons life over another's 'convenience', in this case. Very very rare scenario, but laws are passed to protect the vulnerable in very very rare scenarios all the time. Nothing misogynistic about that.

there are no analogies that will work here. shrug you just have to take waht's useful.

There's no ananlogy to

Yes you do have to strip a person of their rights to give them to another.
But. The life of a potentially viable person trumps nearly any other right, no matter how theoretically troublesome. Life has to be more important than anything else. It's not like a woman has never had rights over her body, she does.

Swallowed,

You may not like my comparisons but I do. That is what makes a debate. I would love to see you parading your feminist principles to women inside a SCBU. Why don't you give it a go and see how the WOMEN react?

To allow a woman who is 8 months pregnant to abort her baby on a whim is not to trade one person's equal right to another. It is trading one month of discomfort against an entire lifetime of a sentient human being. These rights are not equal in any sense. There is nothing wrong with putting that baby up for adoption straight after giving birth and there would be plenty of willing homes. Certainly they would be better parents than the woman looking to kill an 8 month old foetus. And I use the word "kill" advisedly. This is a viable human being if born. To abort at this point involves some form of poison or mechanical killing. If it is born it will almost certainly live.

You talk about this theoretical right of a woman over her own body but would you be prepared to assist at a late abortion? If not, who would you like to put through the trauma? Should doctors who are trained to save lives be made to drown, poison or suffocate a viable human being? I doubt you would find many who were prepared to.

So, what are you really saying?

You see, I don't think men's opinions of abortion should be taken into account at all (except in the case of a man who wants to discuss it with his PG partner, and even then her views take priority over his).

Well, to be fair 'in any circumstance' can include 'on a whim'. this is all pretty hypothetical really, I don't know has it ever happened, we're rguing on a point of principle, rather than a common or garden scenario that affects our mums, bf's, daughters.
Still think it's a debte worth having, however.
I agree that women's opinion when it comes to abortion matter more than men's, but Larry perpective is one that a lot, if not most, women share.

xposts SAF

Perhaps we should start referring to those who are pro-choice as pro-abortion or anti-life if they are going to refer to people who are pro-life as anti-choice or anti-women.

And, Larry, statistically speaking, those women with their babies in SCBU are 50 % likely to have already had one, or will subsequently have a termination themselves.

The difference is between wanted pregnancies and unwanted pregnancies.

Slug - that is something I am uncomfortable with. The baby is a baby regardless of what it's mother feels about it.

I don't know if I have a point. Just I'm uncomfortable with one persons life being defined in terms of another persons view of them...

There is lots of "life" in your body - bacteria, viruses, the occasional tape worm, to name a few.

Cote we're talking about human life here.

" Just I'm uncomfortable with one persons life being defined in terms of another persons view of them..."

I agree

Slug,

I never said that I am against terminations. I said that I am against late terminations and violently against terminations post 24 weeks.

And, despite the evasions and trying to deny men a right to any view on the rights of unborn children (I am talking unborn children and not embryos, which I agree have no rights), no-one here has volunteered to do the implied late term abortions themselves or suggested who should be responsible for them.

Theories have real world consequences. Late term abortions are the real life consequence of applying the overriding principle "a woman's body is her own to do as she likes with". Someone has to do them. Hands up please? Personally, even as a man, I could not drown an 8 month foetus for all the money in the world but, heyho, Swallowed, you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette, eh.

www.guardian.co.uk/journalismcompetition/abortion-in-the-philippines
I am not sure what is insulting about saying antichoice. It describes the arguments used. Anyone who seriously thinks that women have abortions "on a whim" are arguing against letting women make a choice. Talking about terminating a pregnancy at 30 plus weeks in these terms is moreover highly insulting to women.
I said This before, arguing about when and in what cirucumstances a woman is to be allowed to choose to terminate is to argue that women are incapable of deciding in accodance with their moral principles what is best for them and their potential child.
You can call me proabortion if you like. I don't find it insulting. As I have said my position does not involve imposing my morals nor mu opinions on anyone. That is the actitude of the antichoice argument.
Oh and the links is about the Phillipibes where abortion is illegal in all circumstances.

Larrygrylls: some people are so in favour of allowing women the right to choose that they risk their own lives by working in abortion clinics -a lot of 'pro-life' nutters are perfectly all right with murdering actual living people in the name of protecting foetuses.
No one is going to force you to have an abortion, or to perform one. Your opinion is of no interest or relevance to women you have never met, why should you have any influence over their choices?

Springchicken,

You are making a "straw man" argument here. I am not anti abortion, nor am I "pro life" in the sense most "pro lifers" are. In fact I strongly believe in the right of a woman to obtain an abortion up to a defined limit where society says an embryo is a sentient being with rights. At that point I become strongly anti it and the later in the pregnancy, the stronger my view.

To the best of my knowledge, there are very few (if any) women risking their lives in abortion clinics prepared to kill viable foetuses in the UK, although maybe I am being naive there. Certainly they would be operating illegally if they were.

Why should you have any influence over a woman you don't know who wants to murder her (born) child whom you equally don't know? I suspect you feel that you should speak up for the child and that the child has some rights.

Protecting the weak is a part of a civilised society and, as such, my opinion has validity.

Yes, you are talking about "human life". Incorrectly.

The vast majority of abortions are carried out in the embryo stage. All but a few happen in the first four months of pregnancy. An embryo possesses "human life" only because it is made up of human cells, in the sense that a sunflower seed possesses "sunflower life".

"I'm uncomfortable with one persons life being defined in terms of another persons view of them..."

An embryo is not a person, and neither is a fetus. Until you grasp this very simple truth, you will forever be confused on the subject and wonder why the murder of these little people is legal in so many modern countries.

Thanks for the information on Nicaragua and the Philippines. Really horrible stuff. Does anyone know what happens to women with ectopic pregnancies in NI and other states where abortion is illegal, given that life is believed to start at conception? How is that dealt with?

Actually Bornsicky whereas some women do die from illegally performed abortions, 100% of all babies die in any kind of abortion or are you one of those who think a baby is only a baby if the mother happens to want it?