to think that you can either have a clean, tidy and uncluttered house OR happy children but not both?

[GreenTeapot]

Or can you manage both? How do you do it?

But 'borderline OCD' can't be good, happy or healthy can it?

That's why I don't take the moral high ground on this. I know our tidy house is down to oodles of space and help.

I don't see that as somehting I should be inordiately proud of.
I vist my mate with five kids who she home educates and her modest home is a mess and I know without a shadow of a doubt that she is twice the parent I or any of us here will ever be.

wordfactory being flippant (apologies to genuine sufferers)

But in the end if I go to someone's house and there's washing up in the sink and crumbs on the floor and ironing in the bathroom and kids toys kicking about, I couldn't care less.

What's important is the place is clean. Tidiness is a different matter.

Also year ago, people didn't have so much stuff

Oh to have the luxury of a child-free room, never mind rooms! Haven't got sufficient space to even clear out the toys from the lounge once they're in bed. We used to, but ds2's bed is now under ds1's where all the random crap toys used to be stored..

I think if you have more room, you just get more stuff. If you're a tidy person, you can do it in however much space you've got.
The dirtiest, messiest house I ever had was also the biggest, pre-dc, just two idiots students clueless young adults.

I agree that toy room is the holy grail if you want some semblance of order....however ours are old enough to play by themselves downstairs (where our toy room will be) - its a toy obstacle course in our upper level. I used to be adamant I wouldn't have a house where the kids stuff was edging everyone out but now I get it. I really get it.

Clean though - that is different. Our house is untidy but not a science experiment.

"until" ours are old enough to play downstairs....I wish we could correct our posts

I try to aim for a happy medium, i.e. a reasonably tidy home and only slightly miserable children.

Beta - so what about when you and DW want to go out when your kids are teenagers? Will you really never let them have mates over?
You will make them a laughing stock among their friends with rules like that.

How about when they are home from uni during the holidays? Still not allowed home alone when they are 18/19?

I am really shocked actually, it sounds like you don't really consider your house their home.

BsshBossh - ".... DD hasn't trashed it yet ..."

How old is DD? She is just lulling you into a sense of false security. Its only a matter of time.

I want a tidy and organised home so much but just can't find the motivation to get it that way.
I'm incredibly lazy when depressed which doesn't help matters. I'm very lucky in that I have a playroom, dishwasher and tumble drier so I really have no excuse for it to look the way it does hangs head in shame.

Alibaba - to be serious we are currently wrestling with this issue as DS1 is almost teenage.

We are looking to buy a house with a basement 'chill out' room they can have enjoy with friends. Currently, children who visit are also banned from certain rooms and that rule will stay. We will never have children/teenagers alone in the house. They get up to stuff.

It is perfectly possible; you just have to get yourself organised.

Dull but - a place for everything and everything in its place.
Never leave a room without taking something with you.
Little and often.
Train/reward/bribe children to tidy up after themselves when told.

It's so easy to get into the habit of just not seeing mess - eg walking past the same stuff on the stairs every time you go up and down. It's just as easy to pick things up on your way past, and it makes such a difference.

And I get a bit cross when people suggest that just because a home is clean and tidy, any children living in it must be understimulated/bored/unhappy. It smacks of Dawn French and her "There are two kinds of women - those who like chocolate and complete bitches" TBH.

Yabu if you have a small house, no space for storage, small children and no cleaner.

Yanbu. Its impossible if you have a small house, no space for storage, small children and no cleaner.

It's possible to have no money for storage, but there are ways of fitting stuff in with creativity and an Ikea catalogue even in a very small house.

And if you can't find the stuff you want because of the mess/clutter, it doesn't get used, so just get rid of it et voila problem solved.

And if you can't find the stuff you want because of the mess/clutter, it doesn't get used, so just get rid of it et voila problem solved.

Good point. I think most people aren't ruthless enough about paring down toys periodically. We go through the boys' stuff roughly every 6 months and it's amazing how much you can get rid of.

And I get a bit cross when people suggest that just because a home is clean and tidy, any children living in it must be understimulated/bored/unhappy.

I also get cross when people think if others don't live up to their 'standards' of housework they aren't as good as them- and I'm not talking about "How Clean Is Your House" standards of filth here, there are degrees!

Calling people "lazy cows" for not mopping the floor - honestly have you heard of the women's movement at all?

It's like being in the 1950s in here sometimes. ^Whispers "And she never scrubs her front step either..." "'Ave you seen the state of her windows...?"

Is it the Wife's fault if the house is a mess? Does Husband demand his tea on the tables when he gets home from work? Do you make sure the children are seen and not heard and let him talk about his day...oh and spruce yourself up with a lick of lipstick and a hair ribbon before he comes home?

Dear me.

Has anyone specifically said that it is a woman's fault if the house is untiidy?

I hadn't spotted a specifically feminist angle on this thread tbh, and I'm pretty good at that these days.
MoreBeta is the clean-freakiest so far and he's a man.

"Yanbu. Its impossible if you have a small house, no space for storage, small children and no cleaner."

Yes
Yes (not even a bloody cupboard to keep the ironing board and vac in!)
yes
and yes.
And yet I manage to keep my kitchen table both spic AND span...

R.e the child free rooms-my house is teeny but i don't allow toys in my bedroom OR my ds to go in there when he has friends over. I don't want a pair of four year old wiping their bogeys on my 400 thread count sheets and breaking my slats jumping on the bed.

The thing about housework (and I fail to see how the feminist angle fits in also) is that actually it is really not a good thing to wait until the kids are in bed/out to do it.
Children need to see adults tidying and cleaning. It shows them that there is no magic fairy who comes and does it, and that a house takes work to make it run smoothly.
Also, as they get bigger you can rope them in. Ds (4) already has a couple of chores that he is expected to do.
Teamwork is the goal, rather than adults slaving after children.(I know, I know, the impossible dream!)

Oh MoreBeta your post about multiple child-free rooms is going to stay in mn's history now. Next to LeQueens thread about the house with hens etc. Are you two husband and wife?

I must say i thought i am clean freak but reading your posts i feel laid back. Except i beat you on this: our shoes dont go in the hallway and under the stairs. They stay in the porch!

I'm not a clean freak, but honestly if you do little bits of cleaning as you go along and put things back in the right place when you have used them, then its not hard to keep a house clean and tidy.

If you really have no space e.g. 1 room in a b and b, then it is hard to keep things tidy. But even a small flat or tiny house can be kept tidy if you don't hoard.

We don't really have more space in our house for books or ornaments without it feeling cluttered. So we operate a policy of if you buy 1 new book etc. you need to get rid of 1 old one.

I never worried about my DC rooms when they got to teenagers though. As long as there wasn't rotting food and it didn't smell too bad, I just let them get on with it. But the rest of the house has most of the time been fairly clean and tidy.

Beta, to be honest your way of living sounds extreme and uptight. I don't allow the DC in our bedroom when DS has a friend over, but that's all. What on earth are you worried about? What would they do? How will they learn about respect for other people's belongings and responsibility if it's never expected of them? And they must feel very ... is there such a word as untrusted? I feel a bit sad for them (although I'm not disputing that they're happy, just trying to fathom how a child would feel in the situation you describe).