to think that you can either have a clean, tidy and uncluttered house OR happy children but not both?

[GreenTeapot]

Or can you manage both? How do you do it?

I'd better go - haven't done the dishes yet and the kitchen floor's covered in sweet potato

Erm research shows that 'happy' children are more likely to live in a clean and tidy house with good routines.

oh, i did, timewaster - someone upthread pointed out that children brought up in dirty messy homes, and not taught how to tidy wouldn't be very good housewives in the future, with a direct reference to their future husbands, so the 'children' who were expected to learn how to clean and tidy were obv the ones sans penis.

i hoped it was tongue in cheek though, so sat on my hands.

When our house is tidy, and it's not too often, everyone is happier. Everything has a place, if it doesn't DON'T HAVE IT.

YABU - its possible to have both if you are at home all day. I am with 3 dd's and my house is tidy. I was worse when i had no kids for some reason. I get in from school run at 9.05 and can have it nearly all done by 11.

For the rest of the day i clean and tidy as i go so im not left with a mass of housework on an evening.

Obviously working parents havent got as much time to get everything done.

That's marginally better!

Fifi, what if you're not home all day? If I was, I could probably manage - the latter months of my ML saw the house in a considerably tidier state than usual. But DP and I are forever coming in from work/going out to work/trying to get some sleep/sorting packed lunches and changing bags/organising children to go to nursery/childminder/cooking/doing laundry/cleaning kitchen and bathroom, then the actual sitting down and interacting with them once in a while - there isn't a huge amount of down time and really, the thought of spending 2 hours a day maintaining the house in a perfect state is just an impossible dream. Plus our working hours vary from one week to the next so it's not even like I can predict that I will always have, say a Friday morning free to clean my skirting boards or whatever

If I had the cash, I'd pay the CM to take the kids while I paid a cleaner to fix up the house while I paid a masseuse to sort my shoulders out

Oh that might have been me, madwoman and I was being Tongue in cheek.

Personally I rather enjoyed the subtle one-up-manships - the 'dining room.' 'playroom' 'cleaner' kinda thing

Later we will be having pantries, parlours and drawing rooms, a library even!

You either think being tidy is important or you don't. Some people pick up as they go along and never leave stuff, some people procrastinate and find a million other things to do.

It's just not true that you can have time for your kids and be tidy, in fact the tidier you are the happier everyone is and the more time you've got.

we have a 'grown up lounge' - a quiet room where any of us can go for a bit of calm... today dd 17 months has been sitting in it a lot watching a dvd she is obsessing over... sometimes ds1 age 10 goes there to escape the toddlers... but it is definitely a toy free room and a food free room...

as to the parent's bedroom being off limits thing - we don't have that rule, but ds1 would rarely come in these days as he'd have no reason to... and i think maybe as my two small ones get older if they give us the same privacy that's quite nice...

Thats what i said green. Its harder for parents who work but the op said you cant have a clean house and happy kids. I said i can.

Some people like a tidy clean house so make sure it is, others are not bothered and thats fine its their house and up to them.

I am saying i have a clean tidy house and the kids are happy so i can have both. I dont find it hard to keep the house clean as i dont let it get to the point i would have to spend a whole day doing it.

madwoman, missed that one.

If you're out all day, then surely nothing gets dirty or messy?

Pantries aren't posh.

Laquitar - I am a true Virgo as no doubt explains the love of perfection and order that LeQueen and I seem to share. However, DW is a Scorpio and thinks I should just get out more and she is good for me because I am the rock that meets her unstoppable force sometimes.

GreenTeapot - keeping the childrens toys and dirt in their room is one good easy way to keep a house clean and tidy. It genuinely is my top tip for a busy parent.

I really can't understand friends who let their DCs dump toys and muck everywhere. We also have furniture which is very easily damaged in some rooms and it is not fair to tell children off for accidentally damaging something very valuable. Our children know no other way of living and I hope they will turn into men who are good to their DW/DP and not those men who never do housework that I read about on MN. They have their own work room and play room and garden to be messy in as long as they tidy up after.

I'm still so surprised no one has their bedroom off limits! I seem to remember, when I was kid, everyone had this rule. (No playrooms either, we were in a two-bed flat.)

I actually think it helped me learn respect for other people's space and belongings. Definitely didn't make me feel untrusted or anything, it was just that it was a place for grown-ups and I was a kid.

YABU, it is easy. Sort out good storage (have a home for everything), purge regularly, keep on top of the mess. Cleaning by my cleaner as a result is apparently much easier.

I do love my house though - that helps me to look after it in an OCD kind of way.

when i was growing up, my parents' best friends had a sitting room (it was all turquoise with massive velvet turquoise sofas, amazing, this was the 1970s obviously) which we kids were only allowed into very occasionally, and we always had to take our shoes off before we went in. and had to sit on the floor not the velvet sofas, of course. i remember it very fondly.

Green, you say "the thought of spending 2 hours a day maintaining the house in a perfect state is just an impossible dream" but it can be done. Not "perfect state" but certainly tidy, clutter-free and clean (and happy DC!!).

DH and I work long FT hours but our house is lovely with strict systems and routines:

• DH and I do 1 hour of cleaning each (so = 2hrs total) on Saturday morning - hoovering, dusting, cleaning kitchen/bathroom etc.
• Laundry is done 3 times a week on 60min wash as soon as we're up from bed, hung to dry by time we leave house at 8.30am.
• Daily tidy up takes 10 mins each day.

My evenings after DD is in bed are FREE. Most weekends are FREE. DH and I are FREE to spend loads of time with DD, together as a couple and alone too.

If you do a massive blitz to get rid of excess clutter, get good storage systems in place, train everyone (even a 3yo) to pick up after themselves then ongoing housework takes no time.

I never understand all these people who do a few hours of housework a day. Life's too short and did I say my house is clutter-free, tidy and clean?? .

Oh, and I'm a Leo .

i do 2 hours per day as i change a bed most days, have 2 dogs and 3 dd's in a 3 bed council house which is quite small. If i dont blitz it eveyday it will get out of hand. Obviously if i was at work all day no one would be making a mess so i wouldnt have to spend 2 hours on it IYSWIM

and im a scorpio

I think you make a good point there Bosh. If we both worked FT the CM's house would be the one suffering. As it is ours takes the brunt of the children!

I am an Aries and they are known to be shit at housework, it's been written in the stars since the dawn of time...

I have been known to vacuum 'through' the scattered Megablocks/plastic animals/toy cars. Clean, yes. Tidy, not when DC's are awake.

I still don't understand it. We get a lot of houseguests and even with a full house for a week I'm not rushing around cleaning. Tidying up yes, but it still only takes 10 or 15 mins here and there. And home for a week with DD and DH - again the same even if her friends come to play.

However, I take your point if you have dogs. I don't have any pets so have no idea how much mess they can make.

I haven't read the thread and tbh I can't be bothered to read it, bit I am starting to find it quite insulting that people think my child is not happy/i am not normal just because my house is clean.
I work full time, I have a child, my house isn't huge - my house is clean because i get off my arse and clean it.
Mumsnet is the only place I have encountered people that think its ok to live in filth/don't wash kids/wear dirty clothes. It is very odd.