to think that you can either have a clean, tidy and uncluttered house OR happy children but not both?

[GreenTeapot]

Or can you manage both? How do you do it?

WRT the 'my house is clean but messy' comments, I tend to encounter the reverse far more often when visiting houses. That is, superficially tidy but not really clean. Presumably because people are more likely, if they know someone is coming around, to have a quick tidy up than to scrub the skirting boards.

Beta, no. I have rooms from which child-related items are removed once child has left room/gone to bed.

if we designated any room child-free, they either wouldn't be allowed to eat, watch tv or sleep. my bedroom could be child-free and largely is, except in cases of nightmare, when they do get shooed out and put back to bed with a cuddle. we once lived in a 4 bed with an additional large box-room that was the playroom, and tht was the tidiest my house has ever been. these days with 5 of us and 2 dogs living in a 2 bed with a one room basement, only 2 of the the dcs have to share. no sep dining room either.

kalinda - you weren't the only one manning the twin tub at ten in our house all the dirty laundry got thrown into the bath, where it festered forever until i dragged it out and to the kitchen. the twin tub was kept outside (no room inside) so it had to be wrestled into the house and hosed up. i used to do it on a sunday morning iirc. if i didn't wash and iron my clothes, i didn't have any. simples.

to this day i remember having to empty the bath of laundry and scrub it before it was clean enough to actually bathe. which clearly wasn't anywhere near often enough...

on a particularly boaksome note - i left dd1 (pfb) with my parents for the weekend when she was about 6 or 7 months old. on my return there was mould in her bottle teats.

but dear god, thanks to this thread i'm already plotting my next trip to ikea.

Beta - that is a little Marie Antoinette of you!

I predict a riot the first time you and DW go out and leave your DCs on their own

When I say that my house is clean but untidy - the untidiness is only temporary. I don't follow DS1 around putting things away behind him, I have one big tidy at the end of the day. So right now it is untidy, but by 8.30 this evening when DS1 is in bed and DH and I sit down to eat our dinner, it will be tidy. Everything, and I mean everything, has a home.

Ali, we all agreed that was the best way to approach the toddler-tidying didn't we?

Morebeta - I have never had any of the rules you have. Children and adults can eat in any room, we all keep our shoes on and rooms haven't been designated child free or not for going in without an adult. And my house is usually clean and tidy.

like some other posters, i grew up in a house which was neither tidy nor especially clean... i still have to fight the urge to viakal the taps when i visit my parents, as they take it as an insult when i've done it in the past.

i have a fairly large house with lots of storage and a cleaning lady who comes once a week for 4 hours to give it all a once over. but i probably spend 30-60 mins per day doing bits and pieces. always tidy up after the kids have gone to bed. always wipe down the kitchen before going to bed. and i have one of those long handled dust pan and brushes which i seem to need to use about 20 times a day to sweep up food crumbs off the wooden floors.

i'm definitely one of the tidier/cleaner ones among my friends - i do find it a bit revolting eating off a table that's caked in remnants of food and has lots of non table items all over it... my parents always have about 2 weeks worth of daily telegraphs and their large long haired cat on the kitchen table...

LP: When my eldest DC is at school I work (and pay for younger one's childcare). We get in the door and eat reasonable food every night by 6.30pm. Then it's showers and bed for them. I finish the kitchen cleaning and load the dishwasher, maybe put a load in the washing machine, sort some clean clothes, get everything out for the morning, make packed lunches and go to bed - exhausted. I have crap storage options and no playroom. My house is basically clean (bathroom & kitchen) but not up to cleaning-freak standard. It is often messy because of toys and artwork from the kids. I do read to the kids every night and we do one fun thing per weekend. Of course, I could spend all Sunday cleaning while they are at Xs (usually just a day visit) but I am trying to study to get a better job. I think that matters more than dusting. As long as we leave the house clean, the rest can hang. My mum was a bit of a clean freak and she was profoundly depressed my whole life. I don't care what other people's houses are like and hate the judgementalism around this.

If/when I ever finish my studies and can climb up the career ladder I will get a regular cleaner. In the meantime, it goes in the category of doesn't-matter-that-fucking-much

Lord, Beta, what are you afraid your DC will do if given access to the adult-only area? Is it sex den for you and your DW? Are you afraid of finger prints on the equipment?

For those of you who don't understand how a pen can be left in reach of a toddler-scribbler - you don't have a husband who is always losing his pen, clearly! (My DD always fecking finds it too )

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

Beta: doesn't everyone have designated child free rooms? Um, I keep a tidy, clutter-free house but DD (3) is allowed in every single room in the house. It's her house too and I feel very sad at the thought of barring her from any room without an adult with her. She goes into every room in our house, including our bedroom and my home office and so far hasn't wrecked anything. If she makes a mess she knows to tidy it up; she also knows which things not to touch eg wires, my PC and paperwork, the TV and DVD and remote (until she's older at least). But bar her from my office/bedroom when I'm not with her? No. She'll never learn to respect other people's things if I bar her.

Alibaba - our children will never be left at home alone.

wordfactory - we just have delicate furniture is some rooms we dont want trashed. I mean could you imagine chocolatey fingers and biros in this room?

I wouldn't want to make my children unwelcome in their own home.
And Beta, what do you mean they will never be left at home alone? Never? When they're 16?

Beta that is disappointingly dull.

I had imagined a collection of dildos at the very least.

I don't know, I was never allowed in my parents room when I was a kid and it was no big deal. I mean, obviously I could go in if they were there -- but go in on my own and play there or eat cookies? Ohhhhh no way.

I think they wanted one room in the house that could always be clean and adult, is that so weird?

My house is generally clean and tidy and not particulary over cluttered. I am naturally organised and like tidiness, hence my house is generally sorted. It has it's moments though. Luckily 9y DD is also generally pretty tidy too. And Dh prefers tidiness.

So between the three of us it isn't too bad.

Oh, and DD is definitely very happy :)

Nope never. I especally don't want other teenagers in my house when I'm not there. Unfortunatley, we find other children do not respect our home in the same way as our children have been taught to do.

Firstly, of course YABU!
In my nana's day she was at work all day in a munitions factory, shopped in different shops (on foot) put laundry through the mangle, cooked from scratch, sewed and mended and bloody well tidied up!

I can't stand this idea that no-one " has time" to cook, clean, wash up, and see to their kids.
We most of us have washing machines, vacuum cleaners etc and many of you will have dishwashers, cars, online shopping etc.

Most people I know with those 'orrible kitchen tables covered in half chewed food are not spending all their time doing activities with their kids.
They are sat on their ever expanding arses. It's no suprise that the average British woman's waistline used to be about 26 inches, and now it's about 36!

And, yes, I have a no toys rule in my bedroom. Well, children's toys, anyway.

So you'd get a babysitter for a 15 and 17 year old? (for instance)

Aw Beta don't turn into that parent that all yuor DC's mates hate. There's always one and it aint no fun for their children.

Hmm, our bedroom is an oasis of cream and white and delicate furniture but DD hasn't trashed it yet - not a biro mark or sticky chocolate hands on anything. But beta you know your DC better than I; I think perhaps I've had better luck (so far).

Grew up in a house led by that hippy shitty attitude (impossible to do housework and have happy kids). Now I am borderline OCD, especially about piles of things (I bag them up and hide them to dh's delight). Hate tannin stains. DM refuses to use cleaners in the kitchen (dettol type) which makes me boak. Apparently a wet (dirty) cloth is just as good. Omg, just had a flashback to ripped, old towels that we had to share, fabric conditioner being work of the devil and... forks with crumbs trapped down the forky bits. It was NOT a bohemian idyll, it was a shit tip!!

Am loving the 'playrooms,' 'dining rooms' and banning children from 'adult rooms'

We have five rooms. For all of us