to think that you can either have a clean, tidy and uncluttered house OR happy children but not both?

[GreenTeapot]

Or can you manage both? How do you do it?

I don't get how it can be untidy AND clean? How can it get cleaned properly if it's untidy with stuff everywhere?

"I really notice this when I go on holiday with other people. Some people can turn a tidy room into a mess within 2 hours. You know, coming in and throwing your coat over a chair, make a cup of tea and don't wipe up the spilt milk on the work surface, read the newspaper and leave it on the sofa instead of in the newspaper rack, not washing up a cup or putting it in the dishwasher after it has been used, etc."

Oh God that is me

Yes, the 'it's cluttered but clean' contradiction.

It can't really be clean can it, if the sides are covered in crap.

I think all it means for the kids is that they are lazy slatterns too. I don't hold out much hope for their housewifery skills in the future. They'll just have to marry a nice man with a respectable mother who doesn't mind tidying up.

I agree it is insulting, but I just think people with messy or dirty homes think this to make themself feel better about their home being messy and/or dirty.

I agree with LeQueen that leaving things and not tidying up or doing small bits of cleaning as you go along, actually means that you can spend more time doing housework in one big massive clean every week.

I have a tidy and clean home and my children are very happy.

There is time enough for both.

ALthough I thought we were past the time when women judged other women according to the cleanliness of their home...

I think 'cluttered but clean' can happen, for example if you have toys all the floor but otherwise things are clean, not filthy.

But a lot of people think they are living in 'cluttered but clean' when really it's all a big mess.

I judge women on their nets.

Fool proof. Fact.

If they don't have any they are no better than they should be.

Nets are sooo working claarrsss, dahling.

In defence of OP I could have asked the question in exactly the same way not because I want to insult others who manage both a show home look all the time and happy children but because of how I just wonder how they do it and I struggle but still don't manage it without getting stressed. For example friends who do manage both never seem to have anything out of place not even a toy. When I pop in every toy seems to be out of the way and so I console myself with the thought that they can't allow their children to play with anything and only play in the garden but even the garden is immaculate even their flowers never seem to be straggly!

Norman I don't judge people by their housecleaning, I'm just disagreeing that having kids means a messy house.

What about those flouncy curtainy things? Like layers on strings?

You would judge me hully - I don't own any curtains of any type.

I grew up in a dump and it is actually horrible. It is very embarassing (as lequeen says) and quite stressful, nothing can ever be found, all sorts of gone of crap lurks in the fridge, you end up paranoid that you smell. I think my cleaning habits are actually borne as a reaction to having grown up in a messy house. It is not very nice, don't kid yourself.

gone off I meant.

I guessed as much you hoor.

I grew up in chaos (alkie father). My bedroom was organised like something terribly organised and my house is now. External order=internal peace.

Not sure I've got either .

leQ, this may well be the first time I agree with you...

Totally agree GetOrf.

I spent some time as the smelly kid in class when I was young

Grew up in a cleanish house but my parents went through some years when they were strangely negligent about laundry and I was too young to do it myself.

The grief I got on the playground!

My dd was allowed to make mess as well - I wasn't some anal uptight twat when she was younger.

She was hugely into craft yawn at one point, I just used to cover everything with old newspaper and sheets before letting her loose with oil paints/batik kits (why god why?), glue and shite.

And she helped me put it all away. I am not a mummy martyr, she can help clean up her own stuff.

I should book her therapy place now, evidently she must have been made so unhappy

"If they don't have any they are no better than they should be"

Nets! Ha! I am busy culling all the nets from our new house. Last owner left them and I hate them. Horrible unhygeinic,irritating....netty... things! Gaaghh!

And they are only no better than they should be because you can see what they get up to

I laughed when I saw the title of this post! One of the things I vowed I'd never do as a mother is to do housework when I could be playing with the kids. Growing up, my mum was permentantly doing housework and it drove me mad. We could never leave jigsaws out or anything we made from Lego etc etc. I got the distinct impression that having a spotless house was more important than our needs, and it definitely stifled any creativity.

Having said that, I think it is possible to have a clean house and happy children, but only if you don't go overboard with the cleaning.

For those of you struggling to come to terms with a messy house, I have a possible solution. I find that if, when I look at the mess, I focus on what I was doing instead of tidying, then it makes me feel better. Eg. I look at the huge pile of paper on the kitchen table and think to myself, that's there because I took the kids out on a bike ride instead of clearing it up.

Mine has been an untidy filthy mess for the last 4yrs since we moved here.

But now the youngest has started sleeping well and after 5+yrs, the sleep deprivation is lifting and I have energy to sort stuff out. i have been ruthless, absolutely ruthless about getting rid of crap and can really recommend Ikea Expidit....

It is a big job, but I am getting there and should have a clean/tidy house in a few weeks time.

And my kids are extremely happy