Someone I know very well not paid a penny in tax in years

[mrsmusic]

Not really an AIBU... I have recently found out that BIL, who has been running two small businesses for a few years, has never registered these businesses, never had any books etc. It makes me so mad! We pay thousands in tax every year and to me it's stealing from society and making a mockery of those who do put in and contribute. If it wasn't someone so close, I'd have been on the phone to the tax people by now. I asked a close friend for their advice and it was to leave it, as what goes around comes around (e.g. he'll never be able to get a mortgage) and the tax office will catch up eventually. And I've nothing to gain from it, so I won't. WWYD? Honestly?

You can sleep with your BIL - maybe even murder him, but you never grass him up to the tax man - it's just not cricket.

YABU. Shop him.

For every person that doesn't pay the tax they should, that's less money to fund hospitals, schools, care for the elderly, care for the disabled, etc.

For every person that doesn't pay the tax they should, that means that tax rates have to be put up higher so as to collect more from those who do pay.

Tax evaders are robbing everyone else.

Yes it's true that many rich people use loopholes to avoid tax. But (a) that's legal, this isn't and (b) two wrongs don't make a right.

So then shop him.

Why are we jealous Mdow, iven that DH is self employed and doesn;t do contract work so miight be able to get away with not declaring if he was inclined to be a thief?

'inthesticks .... a company not have to pay VAT until it is taking around £80k a year (cant recall the extact figure - but its in that region).

So most small tradespeople are not subject to VAT.

VAT threshold is £71k turnover, which is very different to profit.

  DH is about to register as many of his potential customers are people who can claim VAt back or large companies who want the audit trail.

I can't help thinking that it takes a certain kind of person to actually take the time and effort to grass somebody up to the taxman.

It takes a certain type of person to take the time and effort to " grass someone up" to the taxman.

Er no, I really don't think it's that hard or time consuming to report fraud

Yes mcdowdall someone with strong principles.

You could just as easily say it takes a certain kind of person to report seeing a burglary or suspecting child abuse. No doubt you'd say people shouldn't poke their nose in there either .

I suspect a lot of the ^shop him posters& would pay cash for a cheap job

Why do you have such a low opinion of people and whats that based on usualsuspect?
I find it really sad and strange that some people assume that people only act out of self interest. The thing that pisses 'me off about fraudsters is that it acts against the interests of humanity as a whole. There is less money to go round for the deserving, because people avoid paying what they are legally obliged to, and because money has to be wasted on investigating and charging these people. And no, I have never paid cash for a cheap job in my life- wouldn't occur to me.

Hand on heart though ,how many people haven't had a cheap job done for cash

I know I have, and no I wouldn't report either

I think a crime against the state is different from crime against individuals. We are individuals and therefore we can and should seek to intervene against crimes against other individuals.
The state is a collective that represents our society. I don't think it's appropriate for individuals to do the job of the state. Plenty of countries have had experience of neighbours shopping them for whatever action the state decided was a crime. It's a bad road to travel down. The HMRC is very effective at catching people so let them get on with it.

What would be interesting to know is if the OP did decide to report, would it be because of a genuine sense of moral obligation to society? i.e it's the OP's duty, or because they are annoyed with BIL

I understand people getting wound up about tax evasion, I do hope everyone venting their spleen on this thread is equally up in arms about the many billions of tax payers money that was thrown at the banks to prop them up

Most of those responsible for the collapse are still pulling in massive salaries and are still in their jobs thanks to our tax money, and are certainly did their bit to bring on this recession and massive subsequent dip in tax revenues. I find that as disconcerting (if not more) than a tradesman doing a few cash jobs.

The HMRC may well do a very good job of tracking people down , but that's isn't a reason in itself to not intervene as an individual. Fraud harms people - there is less money to go round for those who are entitled to it.

While the government let the very rich get away with legal tax avoidance of millions of pounds

I'm not going to report someone for a few quid

Chen - I am sure people are up in arms about that too! There seems to be an awful lot of assumption on this thread (and other similar ones) that if you deplore tax evasion by the small tradesman, you must therefore condone it when it's done by rich MPs or bankers. Where on earth is the logic in that? If you disagree with fraud, you disagree with fraud. End of. If you condone it, you condone it, end of. So, to turn it around, as I said earlier, I can only assume that those who think it's fine for the ops relative to not pay tax, and that she should not report him, also think it's fine that some MPs are fraudulent

I'd shop him without a doubt. Wouldn't even have to think twice.

"If you disagree with fraud, you disagree with fraud. End of."

Things might be that black and white in your world but if I'm honest it's not in mine; there's bit more nuance for me and degrees of fraud, and context plays it's part too.

A tradesman doing a couple of cash jobs a month on the quiet is certainly committing fraud, whether he is as worthy of my righteous anger as an incompetent banker who made millions on high risk investments which failed and cost the taxpayers billions is debatable imo.

Reality - it's not tax avoidance, this is tax evasion.

tax avoidance is totally legal - it just means not paying tax when you don't need to (although most people don't really think about it, and it can take an accoutant to point out the smaller points)
eg.
VAT - if, like me, you run a bookshop, you don't pay VAT on books, and your custoemrs don't pay the VAT on the books they buy from you. but the till and the electric and the printer ink and the bookcases have VAT on them. You can avoid paying the VAT by registering for VAT even though you're below the threshold (the VAT Controller is my bestest friend because once a quarter he gives me back a couple of hundred quid)
there are others, but i can't think of any....

I would shop him. I currently pay tax PAYE but I have been paid cash in hand in the past and declared every penny. In fact one year, a couple of days after filing my tax return I realised I had missed one payment out when doing my calculations (accidentally). I called HMRC and followed up in writing informing them of my mistake and paid the relevant tax.

Nobody likes paying tax but it is a necessary evil. Tax avoidance makes me uncomfortable but as minipie said it is legal and 2 wrongs don't make a right.

I can honestly say that I have never gone looking at somebody's rubbish or spied on them. I would never actively seek out what people were doing. However if I ever become aware of them committing a crime then I will not cover for them.

For me I guess it comes down to who I'd rather go for a pint with. Some jovial odd-jobber making a few quid on the side by taking cash in hand or some of the pious sorts on here who sound like they'd gladly shop their own granny if it ever came to it.

Chen- yes; of course there are nuances, but those are taken into account when action is taken. Just as with any crime, where there are mitigating circumstances, this is factored in at the point of sentencing, by those responsible for making such decisions. Thus, a teenager from a dysfunctional home who in a moment of stupidity enters someones house and steals a bit of cash, is unlikely to receive the same sentence as a habitual criminal who enters peoples homes and takes thousands of pounds worth of goods. They may be convicted of the same crime, but receive very different sentences. Its the same with the situation you describe. Fraud IS fraud - its ridiculous to try to argue that black is White. However, how two situations are dealt with may be very different, and I think it's a very dodgy road to go down to start arguing that we as the general public should be making those decisions about how fraudsters should be dealt with. And where do you draw the line? Does Joe bloggs decide not to Intervene when someone is getting mugged because they look well off and probably wont miss a phone and a few quid? But on the other hand , you step in if it's someone poor looking who's getting robbed? Very dodgy.
Report the guy and let the officials take appropriate action

I prefer to spend my time with honest people.

yes, cash in hand isn't aproblem in itself.

a lot of small traders prefer cash in hand because it's immediate money, and it's better for their cash flow than a cheque, and most can't do card machines due to cost.
It doesn't mean that they're not going to declare every penny (especially if they've given you an invoice/receipt!)