To wonder how Socialism would work in the UK?

[smashinghairday]

I read posters talk about Socialism and wonder how people would like to see it operate in the UK today?

Is it desirable or achievable?

guide to Communism vs. Socialism:

SOCIALISM:
You have 2 cows
and you give one to your neighbour.

COMMUNISM:
You have 2 cows
the Government takes both and gives you some milk.

FASCISM:
You have 2 cows
the Government takes both and sells you some milk.

NAZISM:
You have 2 cows.
The Government takes both and shoots you.

BUREAUCRATISM:
You have 2 cows
the Government takes both, shoots one, milks the other and throws the milk away...

TRADITIONAL CAPITALISM:
You have two cows.
You sell one and buy a bull. Your herd multiplies, and the economy grows. You sell them and retire on the income.

AN AMERICAN CORPORATION:
You have two cows.
You sell one, and force the other to produce the milk of four cows. Later, you hire a consultant to analyze why the cow dropped dead.

ENRON CORPORATION -- You have two cows. You sell three of them to your publicly listed company, using letters of credit opened by your brother-in-law at the bank, then execute a debt/equity swap with an associated general offer so that you get all four cows back, with a tax exemption for five cows. The milk rights of the six cows are transferred via an intermediary to a Cayman Island company secretly owned by the majority shareholder who sells the rights to all seven cows back to your listed company. The annual report says the company owns eight cows, with an option on one more. Sell one cow to buy a new president of the United States, leaving you with nine cows. No balance sheet provided with the release. The public buys your bull.

A FRENCH CORPORATION:
You have two cows.
You go on strike because you want three cows.

A JAPANESE CORPORATION:
You have two cows.
You redesign them so they are one-tenth the size of an ordinary cow and produce twenty times the milk. You then create a clever cow cartoon image called Cowkimon and market them World-Wide.

A GERMAN CORPORATION:
You have two cows.
You reengineer them so they live for 100 years, eat once a month, and milk themselves.

AN ITALIAN CORPORATION:
You have two cows
But you don't know where they are. You break for lunch.

A RUSSIAN CORPORATION:
You have two cows.
You count them and learn you have five cows. You count them again and learn you have 42 cows. You count them again and learn you have 2 cows. You stop counting cows and open another bottle of vodka.

A SWISS CORPORATION:
You have 5000 cows
None of which belong to you. You charge others for storing them.

A CHINESE CORPORATION:
You have two cows.
You have 300 people milking them. You claim full employment, high bovine productivity, and arrest the newsman who reported the numbers.

AN INDIAN CORPORATION:
You have two cows.
You worship them.

A BRITISH CORPORATION:
You have two cows.
Both are mad.

AN IRISH FARMER:
You have two cows.
You claim government subsidies for eight cows

DEMOCRAT-AMERICAN
You have two cows.
Your neighbor has none.
You feel guilty for being successful.
You vote people into office that put a tax on your cows, forcing you to sell one to raise money to pay the tax.
The people you voted for then take the tax money, buy a cow and give it to your neighbor.
You feel righteous.
Barbara Streisand sings for you.

K999, how, precisely?

Since the Scottish Parliament was created in 1999, public spending has outstripped tax generated there by 45 per cent.

North Sea Oil generated 50 million last year. The UK subsidy to Scotland was over 8 billion.

In addition, Scotland's two flagship banks, Halifax Bank Of Scotland and the Royal Bank of Scotland, were among the most in need of taxpayer bailouts.

Read Professor Andrew Hughes Hallet, a leading Professor of Economics for his take on this question....

Yes, I'm sure there are those who would argue otherwise, but I like his views....

Remember both of those banks have substantial dealings south of the border, meaning that all parts of the UK would have had to shoulder the burden anyway....

So how can you argue with the fact that Scotland doesn't generate enough income to cover it's own public spending?

How can you argue with the fact that England subsidises Scotland to the tune of over 8 billion a year?

How do you think Scotland would fare if financially independent form England?

Me? I'd bloody love English independence, our taxes could be teeny and we'd still be afloat and having a substantially better standard of living across the board.

Apart from small pockets, Scotland is quite a poor country in comparison with England.

I think we would fare perfectly well......but the proof will only ever be in the pudding....

How?

When you can't even raise enough taxes to pay for your public services?

And I will say this - I don't believe for one second that Scotland will vote for independence.

The Scots are canny, they like to have their oatcake and eat it

Read what Professor Hallet, and other economists say......

I think England should be independent too fwiw. You are perfectly capable of running your own affairs

Well quite.

We've run yours for long enough

Where did this 8 billion figure come from? Is it money spent in Scotland by the treasury?

What about the amount of tax raised in Scotland, what was that figure?

Yes, which is probably why the whole country is in a complete mess...

Limbo- Scotland is 8 billion a year SHORT after it's raised it's own taxes, it cannot self support as things stand at the moment, hence the subsidy.
Apart from small pockets, Scotland is relatively poor compared with England.

The UK is rife with socialism. The Govt was responsible for 47.3% of GDP in 201/11. That is an average figure. It is far higher percentage of the local economy in certain parts of the country.

The UK is a socialist country.

Do you know how much revenue our oil generates???? And the UK Economy is bigger than that of France, but the English economy isn't. Scotland would fare better with a proper voice in the EU.

Most of this debate has been about different pparties forming a government under the same parliamentary system, carving up the same cake made in the same economic system in a different way. It's debatable that socialism could be achieved in the same political and economic system that exist in capitalism.

Yes K999.

It generate 50 million tax revenue a year.

A drop in the Scottish public spending ocean.

Can't be bothered copying and pasting. Look up MoneyWeek for the real figures....it's in the billions....

It's about £12bn a year at $100/barrel.

However, arguably Salmond would "trade rule by London for rule by OPEC"

As a disclaimer, I am in favour of Scottish independence as I believe in self-determination. However, I think most Scots will see that if oil goes to $40/bl, they're screwed.

Interestingly, if Scotland becomes independent, England will be much more likely to have a long term Conservative government. Labour only gets into power because of the Scottish constituencies.

Yep - another reason why so many English want independence for Scotland!

Mind you, Labour have done so badly in Scotland recently I think that's no longer a given!

SNP are doing very well and seem to represent Scotland much better than any other party at the moment.

Good grief.......

Has the UK become like America where socialism has become such a dirty word that in some (feeble) minds it has become the equivalent of Stalinist totalitarianism? To see Mao's China and the USSR being held up on here as examples of socialism and for that to go unchallenged is pretty depressing.

All ideologies become more and more unapalatable and unworkable the more extreme they become and I wouldn't want unfettered purist socialism any more than I would want unfettered facism. As with most things in life I find a middle path drawing from different aspects of varying political ideologies the most sensible attitude and the kind of knee jerk tribal politics seemingly found on most sides of any debate now a days totally unconstructive.

As for this specious "Socialists just want to squander other people's money blah blah blah" meme, I think the biggest theft of other people's money in my lifetime has been by those far left socialist trots at the world's banks, who spent years privatising the insane gains made on high risk gambling and nicely socialised their losses as trillions was spent keeping them afloat and are now living high on the hog again whilst the rest of us are being forced to tighten our belts.

socialism can and does work, its really quite different to communism which wouldnt really.

capitalism is evil, once we realise this and really work towards a better world it will continue to harm us.

The problem with socialism is that sooner or later, they run out of other peoples money to spend - W.Churchill

We have had the pick of the Scots politicians running the UK for the last decade, and what a balls up they made of it

Yes, Sweden works, so Socialism can work (where Socialism is defined by mainly privatised companies, but a high taxation burden). However, whether it would work in the UK is another matter.

It might do, if given a long enough lead time. The problem is that firstly, whatever the problems of capitalism, the electorate don't want socialism, and secondly, I suspect there would be such a painful period of grounding in (possibly 20 yrs or so) that no government could survive it long enough to come out the other side.