to ask if anyone has or would send their child to an atheist camp?

[Ihavewelliesbuttheyrenotgreen]

I am a Christian and have attended/volunteered on lots of Christian summner camps over the years. Mumsnet has opened my eyes a bit more to atheism and the choices that people face about religion etc when bringing up kids. Would anyone send their kids on one of these atheist camps and what would be your reasons?

People here are delibrately misinterpreting my words. I think you all know full well what I'm saying. You are very patronising and insulting. You consider me foolish? So be it. Nothing I can say would ever convince you anyway. Why should I worry? All I can say is that I find some of the atheists on the board to be some of the most rude and unpleasant people in the place. That's a shame isn't it?

actually I like the look of those camps, even though my kids are too small. And they go to Sunday school every week. I don't think critical thinking is incompatible with Christian faith and I think it's worth looking at faith from the perspective of someone with none, and really tackling the difficult questions.

onagar, your post makes me shudder

To liken all religious people to racist thugs is just plain nasty.

Christianity teaches love for fellow human beings and a true Christian does not hate nor do they promote prejudice or violence.

Humanism teaches that too hiddenhome. But you don't have to believe women are inferiour or that God walked on earth.

It would really depend on how my DS turns out (nearing 2 so the only things he currently believes in are buses and dinosaurs). I'm not a member of the Dawkins fan club, although I do believe he has said things that needed to be said and I find the lack of tolerance from religions towards non-believers very ignorant. For example, I do not agree with the exemptions from equality laws organised religions argued for and were allowed. I do not see why we are supposed to treat religious beliefs with special consideration when my choice not to believe is not similarly considered.

Agree with PenguinArmy that the religion vs science thing is a false dichotomy and dangerous to push. For some religious scientists, the more they discover about the intricacies of the universe, the more amazing it becomes to them that we and the universe exist at all, and strengthens their faith. Religion is only a barrier to science where a slavish and literal interpretation of religious texts comes into play (hence problems with creationism) but for lots of religious people this isn't the case. Judaism and the Jews have produced a disproportionately high (in ratio) number of amazing scientists. Einstein anyone?

LetThereBeCake I've already posted this somewhere else today but I was taught by an amazing Reverend at school, who actively encouraged us to question and challenge. For the religious in my class, it strengthened their faith, for me, it helped me understand I did not have to believe in God to be moral and live a good life. For most religions critical inquiry (depending on your stance within that religion) can be allowed and encouraged. Christ commends Doubting Thomas after all. It is just a shame that a majority of followers emulate without inquiry and that's the danger of dogma. (I find Dawkins' dogmatic too btw).

There is good documentary evidence that Einstein was discriminated against for being both an atheist and a Jew.

Perhaps we should all be a bit more tolerant.

MillyR Am I wrong in thinking he found religion again at the end of his life?

But yes, he obviously couldn't win!

No, or at least there is no record of it. But it wouldn't bother me what his beliefs were. Many scientists believe in God. Many people who are spiritual don't believe in God. It is stupid to try and push people into boxes and get agitated over it (not aiming that at you, HAW).

When I first looked at the website I thought that it looked fine and not particularly atheist. Just thinking and discussing and learning about the world and having fun. But the Unicorn thing did concern me. It talks about the camp counsellors (pretending to) believe in the unicorns and (again pretending to) get very offended when their beliefs were rubbished. It seemed to suggest that believing in God was as ridiculuous as believing in Unicorns. But it does also mention that it is impossible to disprove the existence of the unicorns which is interesting ie it may also be impossible to disprove the existence of God

Wellies, you've missed the point. The unicorn idea is to teach basic philosophy - it is a principle of philosophical reasoning that if you propose something exists, you are responsible for demonstrating its existence. The point is to teach the children that, in philosophy, there is no requirement to demonstrate the non-existence of something.

But they have also found through doing this exercise with kids that some have had a spiritual response to the unicorn. I think that is incredibly important, because our culture is one in which we don't generally give children opportunities to explore non-religious spirituality.

Milly I understand that the point of the exercise is to consider believing in things that you can't see and proving/disproving their existence but the way it is presented on the website does seem to mock religion. I think that the exercise itself has value in both a secular and a religious setting but I think that way it is talked about on the website is a bit offensive.

Also what are the spiritual responses that children have to the unicorns, forgive my ignorance if this is really obvious. Do they start to consider belief in things that they cannot. Its certainly a good thing to expose children to spiritual things as imo as long as these things are not negative they can bring children closer to believing in God.

• belief in things that cannot see

No, they don't start to believe in the unicorns. They start to develop an appreciation of them - developing an appreciation of symbols, myths and archetypes is an important part of non-religious spirituality.

I can't see anything offensive on the website. Do you want to explain what it is about it that you find offensive?

I'd love to send my children to an atheist camp. And feel sorry for all the other children who are victims of their parents' supersitious beliefs. Religious indoctrination is child abuse.

Children are born believers in God

Ihavewellies But then on that basis, it is mocking religion to assert anything exists which cannot be proved or unproven, and we grind to a halt with all kinds of philosophical debates and discussions that are useful in themselves. The logical conclusion to your assertion of 'mockery' is that the religious mind is an unenquiring one, concerned only with copying rituals and being told what to do by someone (or something) higher than oneself and that faith should be unquestioning. I (thankfully) don't know too many religious people (certainly not amongst my friends) that adopt that stance. For them questioning and critical analysis strengthen their faith.

hiddenhome I don't disagree with that article (have you read about the religious gene?) - after all humans created God (or rather the concept of God) so why wouldn't they do it again?

HH, I can quite believe that is true. When born, children are also unaware that their mother is separate to them.

I'm not sure what that has got to do with a camp for 9-16 year olds though. People don't stay babies forever.

Children are quite philosiphical (they ask many questions about ev erything around them) and will try to think of answers in their own minds. I remember believing that humans just appeared and that little people lived in the radio, as I had no understanding of sound waves or biology at that age and even if told to me I wouldn't have been able to take it all in.
Evolution isn't a simple exclamation, now way will children be able to understand the concept without being taught it, it's taken scientists years of discoveries to understand it themselves so how would that Dr expect young children to just come up with the idea? He doesn't seem to understand how scientific method works.

Sorry for spelling, it's to late and I'm tired!
Explanation not exclamation

It isn't about coming up with the idea themselves. It is about observing and modelling ecosystems, which is part of the scientific method.