... to think that the REASON why big supermarkets are proliferating is because they provide what most familiesneed? (rant)

[fgaaagh]

I've had a bit of a disagreement (intellectual, not an actual argument) with my oldest brother about the increasing spread of supermarkets which are butting out independant little shops in the area he lives (quite an up-market area where his wife grew up, there was a campaign to get rid of Tesco's planning application a few years ago).

I honestly think that people who are against Tesco (or any other large supermarket chain) have a point in that they don't always provide decent value, they limit the range of goods available, they stranglehold the market so that e.g. it's harder to set up a new business in an area where everyone just shops at the supermarket.

But I also strongly, strongly believe that the reason these supermarkets proliferate so well isn't their bully tactics of suppliers. It's not even shrewed planning of store locations, or pricing structures, or reward schemes. It's not great marketing. Or the services they have on offer (e.g. having clothes, petrol or prescriptions next to your other foodstuffs).

It's that they provide what most people want, nay, need these days.

I grew up in a household where mum was a SAHM (she gave up a semi-professional career "because that's what married women did"), dad was fulltime breadwinner. She was able to visit a butcher, and a baker, and an independant gas fitter to arrange a repair, if she needed. But I don't know many families that have that luxury now! Certainly when I was a "SAHM" for a few years, I was also caring for an ill relative (now sadly passed away) and taking on part time freelance work every few months to pay for stuff like car repairs and one off costs, plus we live in an area where it's much less safe to let kids roam the streets. I remember getting in at an 8pm curfew as a young teen, there's no way I'd let mine stay out here independantly until 8pm at the same age (bad area).

Anyway, getting back to my point - these supermarkets provide what my family needs. Tonight, DH is working overtime, and I'm due to collect kids, pick up mum, visit dad in hospital, go to supermarket on way home, drop mum and her food off - I can only do that because the supermarket is a 24hr one!

How could I, with this schedule, visit the nice independant butcher that I know operates just a 10min drive from my house, when he closes at 5.30pm the last time I checked?

Or the last time I popped into a baker on the rare occasion I just go from work straight home, it was 4pm and they had no more than a handful of bread and cakes left at that time.

So, AIBU to think that whilst people like my brother (works for himself - runs his own company - sets his own schedule and has a SAHM) can pooh pooh all they want about the evils of supermarkets, but until (if) independant little shops don't get with the times and realise that many families have sympathy for their economic plight, until it's 10000% more convenient, I'll just continue to shop at Tesco? And that his disdain of me shopping at Tesco, is, frankly, a luxury he (not most other people) can afford?

They seek to deprive people of choice. Of course, you're quite right to point out that they have been spectacularly unsuccessful - probably because everyone else thinks they're wankers, and ignores them! :)

'There's a supermarket on every high street.'

Not everywhere there's not.

In some places, there's an elderly, determined group of people who'd rather the entire area die out along with them than see a supermarket around.

And they'll get exactly what they wish.

People use the supers because they're convenient and they don't want to use their free time food shopping.

In my area the small shops are much more expensive than tesco.

Same here, Laquitar. Bring on the Tesco and ASDA.

I shop there as a 'treat'. We have an italian shop with yummy olives, salami, nice bread etc but its soooo expensive. Ditto the butcher. So it is a treat 4-5 times a year. The rest of the year it is tesco.

Expat -you seem to have the same problem as to where my Mum and Dad live. There has been some very extensive campaigns in their home town against Sainburys and Tesco opening with the result being that everybody now travels 20miles to the nearest big supermarket. Mum and Dad's high street is dying a slow death as all the money is spent elsewhere.

expat. Yes, you're right, some areas don't have supermarkets but in general that's less to do with militant old luddites and more because the supermarkets themselves decide that some places don't offer them the profits they want because the money or the footfall isn't there.

If a supermarket want to move in, they will. And local independents have to adapt or go under.

As I said, before, it's nice to have a choice between independents and supermarkets. And you generally only get that in neighbourhoods that are either rich and/or have a large and diverse pool of residents demanding a wide range of goods and services.

MrsBethel these wankers of whom you speak, would they be people who just have a different viewpoint to you?

I love the idea of lots of independent shops, the reality round here though is that they are expensive and have limited stock, plus they mean I have to drag pregnant self, and 2 DDs round the shops for half a day that we could have spent on cbeebies doing something educational.

Supermarkets mean a nice man turns up on my doorstep, carries it all through to the kitchen and takes away the boxes.

I'm in London. We have a Tesco extra 5 min drive away. Morrisons a 10 minute walk away and TWO Sainsbury's stores at either end of the main road! Our little area used to have a butcher, baker, greengrocer etc (overpriced and poor quality) but they have all gone and been replaced with takeaways. Last year a Turkish food shop opened (TFC) and it is FANTASTIC! They sell proper fruit and veg that is of excellent quality and is at least half the price of any of the supermarkets. They bake Turkish bread on site and have a butchers counter. They stock all the essentials and even milk and eggs are far cheaper than anywhere else. We have basically been converted to a Mediterranean diet because it is all such good value! It's open until 10PM every night. We no longer use a supermarket- and a new Tesco store is being opened at the back of our place! (Like we need another one!) If other shops provided a real alternative for people then I'm sure people would use them.

happy2bhomely, i would be there like a shot. Really, it sounds wonderful (decent food, not overpriced, open until 10pm) - I truly wish we had something similar around here. I really do.

"these wankers of whom you speak, would they be people who just have a different viewpoint to you?"

See, I think people should be free to have whatever viewpoint they want, and shop wherever they want.

The wankers don't like such freedoms. They want to stop people like me shopping where I want.

'If a supermarket want to move in, they will. And local independents have to adapt or go under.'

Oh, believe me, the profit is so there. Hence, the supermarket is not giving up. They have been fighting a very expensive legal battle for a couple of years now, and they're getting closer and closer to their aims.

Good.

This area is crying out for such choice, jobs and services.

I worship at the altar of Waitrose when I go to stay with my parents in England. They live in a rural hamlet, a few miles from a small town. Their grocery shopping is many, many times easier/quicker/cheaper than mine is in central Paris. I have specialist shops galore but need to spend all day dragging a shopping trolley round the streets/queuing in order to enjoy them. And close my eyes at the prices...

We have few Turkish shops too happy and i agree that the bread is fab. But i' ve seen the olives been uncovered and full of flies and this put me off the bread too.

I think that the big supermarkets follow more strict rules about hygiene (staff wearing gloves in the bakery, clean premise etc) and this is another issue for me apart from prices.

The supermarkets produce a (seemingly) rare commodity..."easy parking"

I say seemingly because living in a number of medium size towns over the years I have watched Councils f*ck up town centre parking for all sorts of ideological and money grubbing reasons, but the end result is just to send busy people to the big supermarket

That's definitely true for Edinburgh, Omi.

fgaaagh- Unfortunately, despite all the positives I listed above, lots of people here don't like it because 'it's run by Turks'. Lots of old ladies complaining that it's 'too ethnic' and it's the start of 'them taking over'. Yes it is run entirely by lovely Turkish people, who welcome me every day like I am a friend. I love it a little more just because it reminds me of the shops in Greece and I pretend I'm on holiday while I taste olives and buy Halloumi in bulk! They fuss over my children and help with my bags and gave me a bottle of Ouzo for nothing when I said I was doing a Greek night for my Mums birthday! I hope they never leave.

I can see both sides of the story with this one. I want to shop more at local stores because I think it's better to source goods locally, I want to preserve the character of the town where I live and because I recognise that a lot of elderly locals will really suffer if the local stores go (and hey, I'll be one myself one day). Can I have my halo now?

When I do shop at the local butcher, baker and greengrocer I am always amazed at how much better the prices and quality are. Tesco is expensive in comparison and by quite a considerable margin.

However, I don't do it that often for precisely the reasons given in the OP - it's time-consuming and doesn't fit in well with a traditional working day (and I definitely don't want to spend my saturdays shopping thanks). Plus I find it's the staples such as pasta, rice and tins, and things like toilet rolls and washing up liquid that are always much cheaper at a supermarket than in a local independent store.

I have this dream that we could open a supermarket where all the local stores can sell their wares on the shelves with the supermarkets own and branded products. But as a consumer it wouldn't inconvenience you because it would all be computer encoded in the barcode and you'd just drop it in your trolley as normal.

yanbu mil drives me nuts moaning all the time about supermarkets taking over

Then when, for example, I produce a joint from the butcher's for Sunday lunch she starts freaking out

"£50, it would have been half that at Tesco's. These small shops just rip you off." etc etc

I don't think she's the only one with such muddled thinking

Laquitar-Our one is spotless, and they appear to have quite strict hygiene standards. I certainly wouldn't buy food from somewhere I considered to be unhygienic no matter how cheap it was! Maybe we are just lucky with our one.

Well, that's good expat. You'll get the supermarket in your area because the demand is there and presumably the site is suitable in terms of motor access/noise etc. They just have to go through the planning process like everyone else.

The planning process was made easier for big developers in the 80s. If the planning body rules against you, you can appeal directly to the Secretary of State for Environment and you will win.

That's even if your opponents have won a public enquiry which generally means that there are a large number of objectors from different backgrounds rather than a special interest group of stick-in-the-muds.

Obviously the Secretary of State option is only open to people with deep pockets and that rules out anyone other than huge developers which includes supermarkets.

Those people were big donors to the Tories in the 80s. But I'm not making a political point because if Labour had wanted to do something about local communities they could have scrapped that rule and also forced local councils to bring in policies that would help those town centres that had managed to survive the bonanza of out-of-town shopping centres fuelled exclusively by big developers chasing profits and not giving a stuff about people who don't have cars.

The supermarkets are not actually that cheap. Yes they will have offers on, where by they make a loss on items in order to get people in, where they will then charge way too much for normal things. Wine for example is really expensive if you actually look at it. Selling harry potter at a £2 loss per book is so selfish and shouldnt be allowed, why not let the book shops have a bit of profit ey Mr asda? they obviously claw this money back elsewhere, look at the billions of £ profit they make for their shareholders.
People always assume that the small corner shops are expensive, when this is not always true. In my job I have to sell in to independant retailers. I have seen loads of cases where a tesco express opens up within spitting distance, they sell stuff at inflated prices but still people go in there and the independant shops close. People are so blinkered.
As for the bullying of the suppliers, the situation with milk is at crisis point, dairys are closing down left right and centre due to tesco etc forcing them to make less than a penny a ltr on them, and now we have imported milk from holand and poland which has to be filtered up to 10 times before it meets our safety regulations!! That is why it is so watery!!
The town where I live is a ghost town since asda put a town centre shop there, and now the local papers are full of people moaning that the town has no shops left............it's your own fault! you should have used them!

I can't help but notice that quite a few people on this thread like to use small independant shops "occasionally" eg, christmas.

Trouble is, that kind of trade won't allow these shops to survive, so don't be surprised next christmas when you go for a "treat" to find them gone then you will need to take whatever kind of turkey Mr Tesco/ asda has decided you want...

Don't get me wrong, I do use supermarkets, for store cupboard stuff, and I shop on the internet and have it delivered. Very convenient, and so many of you have said that small shops can't compete, but I've pointed out upthread (ACKNOWLEDGE ME, DAMMIT ) that many small local shops are happy to deliver, if you ask! People are saying that small businesses need to give people what they want- have you told them what you want? I want to be able to buy unusual cuts of meat (got a bargain on beef shin, this week) rather than prepackaged, bright red meat that has been displayed for who knows how long. My butcher knows where all their meat comes from. if I ask him to get me something unusual eg mutton, he can have it for me in the next day or two- would tescos???

I don't think all of you who dismiss local shops are giving them a fair chance to prove themselves

Omigawd Completely agree. Parking or the lack of it ruins town centres. I suppose you could argue that local authorities are only trying to raise money for other services. I think that's a short-sighted argument though.