... to think that the REASON why big supermarkets are proliferating is because they provide what most familiesneed? (rant)

[fgaaagh]

I've had a bit of a disagreement (intellectual, not an actual argument) with my oldest brother about the increasing spread of supermarkets which are butting out independant little shops in the area he lives (quite an up-market area where his wife grew up, there was a campaign to get rid of Tesco's planning application a few years ago).

I honestly think that people who are against Tesco (or any other large supermarket chain) have a point in that they don't always provide decent value, they limit the range of goods available, they stranglehold the market so that e.g. it's harder to set up a new business in an area where everyone just shops at the supermarket.

But I also strongly, strongly believe that the reason these supermarkets proliferate so well isn't their bully tactics of suppliers. It's not even shrewed planning of store locations, or pricing structures, or reward schemes. It's not great marketing. Or the services they have on offer (e.g. having clothes, petrol or prescriptions next to your other foodstuffs).

It's that they provide what most people want, nay, need these days.

I grew up in a household where mum was a SAHM (she gave up a semi-professional career "because that's what married women did"), dad was fulltime breadwinner. She was able to visit a butcher, and a baker, and an independant gas fitter to arrange a repair, if she needed. But I don't know many families that have that luxury now! Certainly when I was a "SAHM" for a few years, I was also caring for an ill relative (now sadly passed away) and taking on part time freelance work every few months to pay for stuff like car repairs and one off costs, plus we live in an area where it's much less safe to let kids roam the streets. I remember getting in at an 8pm curfew as a young teen, there's no way I'd let mine stay out here independantly until 8pm at the same age (bad area).

Anyway, getting back to my point - these supermarkets provide what my family needs. Tonight, DH is working overtime, and I'm due to collect kids, pick up mum, visit dad in hospital, go to supermarket on way home, drop mum and her food off - I can only do that because the supermarket is a 24hr one!

How could I, with this schedule, visit the nice independant butcher that I know operates just a 10min drive from my house, when he closes at 5.30pm the last time I checked?

Or the last time I popped into a baker on the rare occasion I just go from work straight home, it was 4pm and they had no more than a handful of bread and cakes left at that time.

So, AIBU to think that whilst people like my brother (works for himself - runs his own company - sets his own schedule and has a SAHM) can pooh pooh all they want about the evils of supermarkets, but until (if) independant little shops don't get with the times and realise that many families have sympathy for their economic plight, until it's 10000% more convenient, I'll just continue to shop at Tesco? And that his disdain of me shopping at Tesco, is, frankly, a luxury he (not most other people) can afford?

I recall shopping taking the entire Saturday morning as a child - traipsing round loads of different shops and queuing. I HATED it

No, i don't agree. I think Supermarkets exploit and encourage an unimaginative and often lazy approach to shopping and cooking. i honestly don't think that women are busier now than they've ever been at any other point in history; if that was true Mumsnet would be eerily quiet all day long!

Women have always had numerous demands on their time, long before it was normal to be in paid employment during the years of child rearing, and they managed perfectly well before supermarkets came on the scene.

They managed perfectly well but they had no leisure time. It was all drudgery.

Well I do use supermarkets for the convenience. Our town has a large Sainsburys (which we use every week at least) and a large Tesco which I occasionally use. There is also a Tesco metro near where I work which I pop in to often if I need the odd item.

BUT I object to the way Tesco try to monopolise an area. Near where I live there is a little gathering of independent shops, but then a premises became empty and Tesco bought it. They had three goes to get permission to develop it because local traders and various other groups raised objects. Anyway, they persisted and this new Tesco will be opening soon. They will be setting up as direct rivals to at least three of the existing independent businesses so with the sort of financial power Tesco has that probably means it will put them out of business before long.

As a family we have vowed not to use this Tesco when it opens. There is a Co-op just as close where we can get items we need in the evening.

and of course i include myself amongst the lazy supermarket shoppers, much as i'd rather shop elsewhere.

Big chains price small businesses out by using slave labour and sweat shop produce on a very large scale. It keeps their prices down as they can afford to charge less and they gradually price everyone else out.

I do shop at Sainsbury's for instance, but I don't delude myself into thinking it i a fair playing field.

YABU.

I agree with you fgaaagh. I remember my mother shopping for four dc in pre-supermarket days and it wasn't much fun. I think we can eat better as a result too: not so much dependence on tins and pkts! (Food in the UK in the 70s was pretty hideous in reality)

But as with everything, there is a balance.

Was watching a re-run of the Mary Portas series last night (wonderful woman) and she said that small, artisanal shops can fight back by doing the hard work for the customer inasmuch as they ca, cherry pick from a bewildering range of goods, offering extra special personal service (be that advice on cooking or delivery) and having a good personal relationship with their customers. Some achieve this very well but some just haven't grasped this concept at all.

I also think Tesco and other leading supermarkets could use their profits to find some solution to the problem of it being easier for the poorest 30% of the population living in housing estates to buy fast food, than it is to access healthy veg.

Ooh MrsBethel it's not very nice to call people wanky for using independent shops, is it now?

I prefer the word lucky.

I am lucky enough to have a good Mon-Sat market two minutes' walk away. Beginning of the week - cheap clothes and cleaning products. There's a good butcher's stall every day except one, two fishmongers - one five days and the better one four days, one very good veg stall every day and bakers', cake and deli stalls on Fri and Sat.

DH and I can buy before we go to work if we have to because they trade from about 8am.

I don't often use the cake and deli stalls but they seem to keep the wankier elements in my neighbourhood satisfied .

I do shop in Sainsbury's but mainly for staples like flour, milk, cheese, tinned stuff and loo roll. Their meat is good but the cuts are limited and it's no cheaper. Their fish stall makes me heave when I walk past.

If you take into account what nicespam said about supermarket 'offers', they aren't any cheaper in the long run and the quality and choice isn't there. I got fed up with wasting money and food on 3 for 2 offers too.

But, like I said, I'm lucky to have both. Must rush off and finish a wanky article from last Saturday's Telegraph magazine before I pop it in the recycling.

Having been on the suppliers side, I can honestly say that supermarkets are evil.
One day there will be a huge, shocking expose about their ways which affect their suppliers, employees, employees families and as a result whole communities.
The only reason this hasn't happened yet is because of the control supermarkets have over their suppliers. Exposing their ways would put the suppliers out of business permanently.
There are journalists waiting to write these, but can't until they have suppliers on side with all the proof they need to get the supermarket bosses into huge trouble.
I'm aware this sounds a bit "conspiracy theory" but supermarkets really are very evil.

I don't think people who use independent shops are wankers. It's the people who would make me use them that are wankers. The people who campaign against Tescos in order to limit the choice of others in order to keep crap shops in business.

I tell you what, though, someone mentioned the market for veg - if I had the time I'd definitely do that. Cheaper and better. :)

Time and DC in toe mean I like the idea of independent butchers ect but I really like the fact that I can get most of a months shopping delivered in bulk when the DC are in bed - and only supermarkets offer this.

MrsBethel, quite often those who campaign against supermarkets are those who stand to lose businesses that are generations old, and those who have done their research and know the damage that supermarkets do to whole communities.
And that makes them wankers does it? Nice

Tesco is an awful shop, their products and where they source them are very poor quality - normal (not value cheapy range) chicken breasts the other week bought them,cooked them, they were like rubber - normally i inspect the packs as to the origin - these were from germany - where are the british chickens ? Rather go to sainsburys they are far far superior in their quality . I do use local shops and independants when i can but they are decreasing in number due to the lcoal council taking liberties with the parking in my opinion.

We used to be able to park outside greengrocers, dry cleaners for 30mins on the high street now its just double yellows and loading only - its a quid to park in the nearest car park for 60 mins.

I was listening to a R4 programme about it last week and this guy from somewhere in licncolnshire said their high street so far was brilliant and he put this down to the local councillors who were mostly shopkeepers and small business people, they had an active interest in keeping the high street accessible and easy to use for the community.

Businesses that are "generations old" will stay in business if they offer what customers want - there's no automatic right to survival, and that applies to big chains too - remember Gateway, Finefare, Kwiksave, Bejam, Safeway etc, now all long gone.

I guess we're like many people - we're a busy couple that don't see spending time shopping as a big priority. We've recently had some shopping delivered from Tesco - it's been a godsend when for various reasons, including DH with broken arm and other family illnesses/caring responsibilities, we've been really stretched.

I'd be happy to support and patronise good local shops if they existed - I have done in previous places where we've lived. We love going to the farmers market as an occasional treat, or before Christmas to stock up. Our (free range, organic, bronze) turkey came from an independent butcher.

The killer factors are firstly parking - if you go to a supermarket,you know you can park easily and for free. Definitely NOT the case with parades of local shops. I blame local Councils for killing local shopping streets because of this.

Secondly, it's the ease of getting everything under one roof. Even if I went to a butcher and a greengrocer, what about loo cleaner, washing up liquid, dried herbs, peanut butter and all the other grocery items we all need each week? In a supermarket I can pick up all that, and even things like Jiffybags, parcel boxes, some surprisingly good clothes and electrical items. They have brought Fairtrade items to a much wider audience - I'd argue that it's now easy to buy FT coffee, sugar, chocolate and bananas for instance - certainly don't see my local shops stocking these. We will only buy meat that is free range and has welfare standards - I can get these reliably in my local supermarket which I can't in smaller shops, and I certainly can't get to the farmers market every Saturday morning.

And opening hours do matter. The days are now long gone when we all tolerated half day closing one afternoon a week, closing on Saturday afternoons, and shutting up shops at 5.30. If businesses carry on doing this they can hardly be surprised when customers vote with their feet. And how many small businesses pay more than minimum wage or offer share options? Leaving aside Waitrose and employee ownership of the business, all the local Tescos near us never need to advertise jobs - maybe because people want to work there?

There's plenty of room in the market place for good businesses, whether they are large or small, providing they offer what the customer wants.

Um, just to clarify a few things about my OP actually, for ref:

90% of the days I'm at work I take the bus, thanks to the scumbag that joy rode and wrote off my car last July. So definitely not practical for me to carry a week's worth of shopping home; Dh also spends a lot of his time travelling to client meetings at their offices (a "perk" of being a manager, I guess... ).

I think Stillchuckingit has hit the point I am actually trying to make, but more directly. I'll quote because it goes to the heart of what I'm trying to say:

"she said that small, artisanal shops can fight back by doing the hard work for the customer inasmuch as they ca, cherry pick from a bewildering range of goods, offering extra special personal service (be that advice on cooking or delivery) and having a good personal relationship with their customers. Some achieve this very well but some just haven't grasped this concept at all."

that's it!

I have no objection to shopping in the smaller shops. They sit more comfortably with me both from a community POV and also they're often cheaper.

But unless my working/caring schedule changes or some of the local shopkeepers realise they need to offer more than my local supermarket, I can't see us changing for the bulk of our weekly shop. It's not feasible.

I don't want to spend my Saturday doing the food shop and catching up with housework/kids off to GPs or clubs... we already have a limited time together as a full family as it is, I'm not going to sacrifice any more of it if I can help it...

Faverolles I know there are very serious issue with suppliers but I also personally know of two suppliers (old family friends) who have done very well indeed from their supermarket contracts

I am sure you are right. Doesn't make it OK though.

In the days before minimum wage when I was a teenager the supermarkets and large corporations e.g. McDonalds paid far better wages to 16-18 year olds than any of the local shops. I've also worked nights at Tescos for extra money at Christmas. I don't think supermarket workers in the UK are exploited.

I think small businesses suffer because they won't adapt to change. There's a successful farm shop near here, I'm sure one of the reasons for it's success is the fact that it opens until 6.30 every evening and all day Sundays. Small business owners seem to prefer to whinge about the big boys rather than think how they could change to compete.

i use the supermarkets because

a) easy to park
b) has everything (almost) I need under one roof
c) open long hours
d) cheaper usually than little shops

Faverolles I have a friend who works for Disney and he says that the reason why Mickey Mouse only has four fingers is because you need a thumb to pick up a cheque

But even he says that Tesco screw all their suppliers, big or small, into the ground. If companies as aggressive as Disney can't get one over on them, what chance has anyone else got?

I'd have thought someone working for Disney would know mickey mouse has a thumb and 3 fingers

"MrsBethel, quite often those who campaign against supermarkets are those who stand to lose businesses that are generations old, and those who have done their research and know the damage that supermarkets do to whole communities.
And that makes them wankers does it? Nice"

No, that doesn't make them wankers.

What makes them wankers is that they'd rather we didn't have the choice. They'd rather we had only one option - to shop at the shops they approve of. In order to keep them viable.

It's putting their own self-interest before the interests of others that makes them wankers.

It's the patronising assumption that this small minority knows what's best for everyone else that makes them wankers.

YANBU

Depends where you live. I lived in a posh part of outer london (I was in a flat above a shop - the houses were expensive) and it was SO expensive. Lovely, but expensive butcher (much more than tescos), expensive and not any nicer than supermarket veg.

There was a campaign against the mini-tescos opening opposite the tube station - I was so relieved when it opened!

Who are these people who are depriving you of choice MrsBethel?

Because if that's their intention, they're not getting very far. There's a supermarket on every high street.

Tyler80 Off to Google Mickey Mouse