To think if God does exist, he's a bit of a bastard?

[toptramp]

I am especially interested to hear from any Christians. I am not a Christian but I would describe myself as a spiritual person. I don't know if there is an after life, nor do I care. In fact if nothing happens to me when I die it would be a relief.
Some of you may have read my threads about how my mother is dying of cancer. The suffering is awful even though the pain is managed, it is hard to watch someone die and loose all her faculties. Also she is very young. How do you Christian folk justify the suffering, unfairness and pain that goes on in the world such as famine, children dying etc? I am searching for answers but I just cannot find any comfort at the moment.

can somebody get the sky pixie post done & out of the way now?

TIA

When my dad died after a very long and painful illness a friend of his sent us a condolence card, now I know he sent it with the right intentions, but I will always remember how upset it made me. The card said (along the lines of, can?t remember the exact words) In your time of sorrow take confront in the Lord, it is His plan and His will.

I just can?t understand how someone can take comfort in the fact that someone has just died a long painful death at the will of someone, that it is part of some grand plan. Or as one poster said maybe it wasn?t God but the devil/evil. If it was why didn?t God step in and help? Was my dad not worth saving????? Isn?t God all powerful?

I?m sorry but I don?t believe that someone/thing/power decided that for a grand plan my dad had to suffer, I just don?t.

I take more comfort in the belief/fact that his cells mutated for some problem in the genetic make-up that made them flawed. It was not the design of someone, it was not because my dad had led a bad life, it wasn?t part of some plan. It was a random flaw that happens in life. It was not a judgement of my dad.

I took comfort in the love and support that PEOPLE gave me, it was phenomenal. It was a strength you could feel. But I don?t believe there is a God, I take strength and support from life, from the people around me.

And I feel life is hard and brutal and amazing and awe inspiring. I?m not thankful because that implies that there is someone to be thankful to. But I never take it for granted and I try to live it in the best way I can.

OP I hope you can take comfort from the people around you, and the fact that your mum knows you are there for her and love her. There is no greater strength.

Wishing good thoughts and strength to you and your family.

Well, I often find myself grateful for the good in my life, and the beauty I see around me. But I don't ascribe it to any particular god. Being grateful for what we have and not believing in god are not mutually exclusive.

I am very puzzled why anyone would find the story of Job anything less than horrifying. God tortures one of his most faithful followers to prove a point. Nice!

Well, the Bible promises that God will draw an end to all the misery, pain, suffering and horror in the earth. He will bring about the new heavens and the new earth in which there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain (Revelation 21). It will be wonderful. But with that judgement will come the final division Jesus promised repeatedly - eg Matt chapter 13, verses 36-43 - so those who have submitted to God will be part of that new heavens and new earth. It's the reason that the Bible talks about God's mercy in delaying bringing his justice to the world, because he will judge everything. And I know a just verdict on me would find me guilty before a perfect God. That's why Jesus sacrifice in my place is so precious to me, he takes my place and I await God's judgement with confidence knowing my death sentence has already been paid by Jesus.

So wars, genocide etc exist because every human does things their own way according to their own judgement and each of us is fundamentally self interested. Those with extra power get to damage things on a grander scale. God will end it, but I'm praying for lots more people to turn to him before he does.

Well, the Bible promises that God will draw an end to all the misery, pain, suffering and horror in the earth. He will bring about the new heavens and the new earth in which there will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain (Revelation 21). It will be wonderful.

Jam tomorrow .

Its really difficult. My husband found god when he faced death and came out the other side. Its awful but people have good and bad happen to them in life and its fate imho.

God won't end it; us humans will do a good job of it ourselves!

I understand that lots of people get comfort from their faith and thats fine but..

If there is a God and we believe that he is all powerful etc then fact is sometimes he chooses shit to happen to good people - in which case he's not a benevolent God and isn't one I'd want to believe in.

Saying that wars/genocide happen because we do things the way we want them is just a cop out - if "God" didn't want them to happen then he would intervene.

He answers some prayers and not others??? cop out again.

"Being grateful for what we have and believing in god are not mutually exclusive."

I don't disagree with that.

Having been brought up as a Catholic I find it hard to seperate my feelings for the Church (currently not good) and my faith (still hanging in there). Apart from the obvious issues that plague Catholisism, such as misogony and paedophilia I despair how apathetic a lot of Catholics become because of their beliefs. They accept a lot of things without question and are encourged to be satisfied with their lives no matter how crap they may be.

No doubt there'll be lots of people disputing that, anecdotally, but having lived within several different Catholic communities that has been (broadly speaking) my experience.

For the last 1500+ years, Christianity has raised more questions than it has answered. It only begins to make some sense to me when the early Christian teachings on the subject of reincarnation are brought into the equation.

As a practising Buddhist you will know the benefit of meditation and of detaching from the material and the corporeal world, but I'm not surprised that you are unable to find solace in your beliefs or in any religious faith system at this particular time.

I've followed the magickal path for many years but I was knocked sideways by the quick successive deaths of three dearly loved ones - grief can send the most rational soul into the wilderness.

'A Course In Miracles' is, to my mind, a marriage of Christianity and Buddhism,. I suspect that now may not be the time for you to endeavour to complete the 365 daily exercises, but you may find it helpful at some future date if you continue to find it difficult to temporarily transcend this mortal coil.

The book that approximates most closely with my own personal spiritual belief system is 'Seth Speaks:The Eternal Validity of the Soul' by Jane Roberts (deceased). This volume resonates within every fibre of my being. I find it a continual font of wisdom, comfort, and hope, but I appreciate that it is not for everyone.

I believe that this life is but one of many. Obviously, no matter what 'proof' I have amassed to date, I'm not going to know if my belief is valid until after my death - if it is, I'll try and rattle the mumsnet boards in the hope that that others may be inspired to search for answers to the big question out of the box.

If there is nothing more to this life than a random chance lottery I won't be disappointed as I won't know about it but, as my observations of nature have indicated that nothing is wasted, I have every confidence that there is a lot more to come and that we will be reunited with those we hold and have held dear - not in some mawkish marble tiled establishment that is reminiscent of a chippy, but in the vibrant 'real' life that we periodically leave in order that our souls can grow.

I'm often rubbish at putting what I think into words, esp about this kind of thing. I read a book I think puts it really well: If I were God I'd end all the pain by John Dickson. I'll try to explain but would recommend the book as much better.

In the garden of Eden we're shown a picture of an idyllic creation, the couple are in harmony and God is close... by the next chapter, Adam & Eve are pointing blame at each other, God is angry and the environment itself is cursed... essentially the rift between humanity & God is born throughout the earth - from our DNA to the tectonic plates, everything is now chaotic and not how it was originally intended to be, although there remains enough beauty & order to remind us how things ought to be. This is what is meant by it being a 'fallen' world.

To me, this is the intellectual answer to your question of what Christians believe about why terrible and painful things happen - the reason that things are not how they ought to be. There is a randomness to the consequences of humanity having become separated from God (who creates and gives life - if humans are separated from him then we are also separated from the life he gives). The randomness to the consequences of this general separation means that rather than each terrible thing being directly a consequence or punishment of some specific wrong-doing, it can seem so unfair that the terrible things often happen to 'good' people rather than 'bad' people.

I think that answers the why, but leaves you with another question - of why God doesn't then do something about it, if he loves us and is all-powerful. There is a parable of the farmer who sows seed, and whose enemy comes along & sows weeds in amongst the crop. But in order to pull up the weeds, the roots of the crop would have to be damaged too. He waits until the harvest to pull up both the weeds and the crop. I think this is a picture of how it is - if God intervened constantly then it would damage everyone and no-one would have free will to make their own choices - and so he is in a sense waiting to intervene.

I'm not sure any of this is particularly comforting or helpful, as it's a bit theoretical, but it seemed to be the question you were asking - was it? Or were you asking for comfort? In RL I'd have given you a hug rather than trying to answer the question, so I've no idea if this is a helpful response. It's a question I struggle with too.

All the 'freewill' arguments are only applicable to suffering caused by humans. Not to cancer, natural disasters, parasites etc.

'God is angry and the environment itself is cursed' - that attempts to explain how natural disaster etc fits but leaves you with what the OP suggests - a nasty god.

It really doesn't work anyway you cut it without a dollop of blind - or blinding - faith.

I have a theory im brewing at the moment...there is a God. The fact that there are lots of different religions seems to go against this idea but what if really just by following religion a universal God knows we are doing our best to be better people (most religions have a fundamental message of 'do unto others' for example) and want to be closer to Him? I also think fear is the devil's tool and perhaps that's what causes us to worry about God's existence, not have faith and question Him when things go wrong. Perhaps...but then again I've not lost or am losing my mum or loved one.

YANBU. If there is a God, he must be a total sadist.

To quote Dawkins: "The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully."

Let's praise him!

Believing in any god isn't an insurance policy, it isn't going to stop bad things from happening and it isn't going to give you everything you ask for either (anyone see Bruce Almighty?)

The pain that we suffer is the price we pay for love. Sure, if we don't love then we're not going to suffer, what kind of world is that?

God doesn't wave a wand and make miracles happen, he works within people to deliver good. Nurses, doctors, rescue workers, aid workers, scientists working on cures for disease, the list goes on.

In times of personal grief its near impossible to feel god, but he hasn't left you.

I found a book called 'The Shack' a really good read, its very upsetting in places but helped me understand the concept of what god is.

Bhuddists believe taht bad things happen due to bad deeds but there are plenty of awful and evil peopel in the world who live to be very old and die in their sleep. How is this right.

Yes its true that Buddhists believe in karma, that bad things follow bad deeds, but Buddhists also believe in reincarnation. The bad things that might follow a person who had done some pretty bad deeds in this life may not necessarily take place in the current life, but in his/her next life - so for instance, he/she may reincarnate into a life of misfortune and great unhappiness. Personally though, I'm not really for this way of thinking and I think it tends to be perpetuated by Buddhists who still have difficulty in letting go of desire and expectations, not to mention the tiny bit of ill-will there when some Buddhists say about nasty people along the lines of "They'll not have a happy ending." Almost sort of wishing something bad will happen to that person. Its human nature though but can it be overcome?

As a Buddhist are you struggling to detach yourself (in the Buddhist sense of the word "detachment") ? A core tenet of Buddhism is to realise the impermanence of everything you see in this world, and the goal of attaining detachment from mundane life is to prevent personal suffering. Your mother will not stay the way she was, people will not stay happy or unhappy for ever, etc. Personally I've always thought that one of the hardest things about Buddhism is reconciling the compassion bit with the detachment bit without becoming apathetic nor cynical.

I'm sorry about what's happening to your mother and I can empathise with what you're feeling at the moment. I went through similar feelings many years ago and though I will always feel more inclined towards the Buddhist way because that was how I was raised, I have been an agnostic for over a decade as I found believing in the afterlife stuff very hard - the sceptic that I am. I do hope you manage to work things out eventually though, and I hope you find the path that suits you.

I don't know, actually I think that is my mantra I don't shagging know. I don't believe in any kind of God, but it could be true fgs, I have no absolute knowledge of the universe.

Let's face it we are on a random planet in an unknown universe, we may have evolved due to chance, we may be utterly unique in the universe.

We may be a speck in the lives of greater beings, we may be alone on a rock, a complete fluke. I do find it amazing that we are on a rock in the middle of nowhere, yet we have cars and kettles and sky TV.

I have no clue, maybe we are something in something else's big plans, maybe we are an aberration.

I don't think we will know in the near future.

I am so sorry you are going through this OP and for all those who have suffered in this way ie losing a loved one. I am one too and know how vicious it can be.

Some things that stood out from a previous poster (sorry, I've lost track of the poster - sorry) "maybe it wasn?t God but the devil/evil. If it was why didn?t God step in and help?"

I have often felt the same way, passionately, but I believe he did step in when he sent Jesus to die to break the power of the evil that had come into the world, which polluted everything in it, throwing everything into chaos. The reason he says to believe in Jesus and what he did is not because he is a martinet but because Jesus was (is) God himself who came to live with us as a human being, with all the pain, suffering, joy etc that being human means - he knows what it's like, it's not just theory. Then he willingly died to break the power of evil that has gripped the world, the evidence of which is clear to see. He said, when he had done it, "It is finished", meaning that the job was done.

Imo it's a legal fight though - the other side (whose actions God most often gets the blame for) tries it on. A christian, or a believer in what Jesus did and why, can directly say, no, you can't do that, that's illegal. imo that is what prayer is - or one prayer anyway. That's not to say that those prayers are necessarily successful (for want of a better word): sometimes eg a surgeon with every possible level of expertise can't save a life because there are too many variables, too much has gone wrong on too deep a level. I believe that there are layers of spiritual goings-on ie evil, which can be and often is extremely sophisticated, and which it would take a great amount of eg skill or time to dismantle.

That's also not to say that people who die of eg horrible diseases deserve to, that God couldn't get there in time, that he did it to them, didn't stop it because he doesn't care. 'Death', the effects of death ie chaos, coarses through our world. He has chosen to work through people and tbh a lot of the people who could be praying, with faith, 'your kingdom come, your will be done' aren't ( a lot are busy playing church club, or religion club, or God is horrible and will whack you one if you don't behave club). Mind you, a lot of people who love him do show the world a bit of what he is really like - hence some of us sometimes experiencing a deep love from people who represent him (and, although this is probably controversial, it is my belief that a lot of people are showing God's love without necessarily knowing it eg 'good' people: we all have the capacity to love).

"I?m sorry but I don?t believe that someone/thing/power decided that for a grand plan my dad had to suffer, I just don?t. "
I also don't believe that. If the man who sent this to you believed that then it may be that, like me, he believes that there is just too much he doesn't understand, too much heartache, and has chosen to leave it to a God whom he is convinced is a good God with a profound love for humanity, who understands all the levels of all that is going on in the world. But I don't believe that God actively stands by, like a horrible death is in some grand plan, or says 'tough, sorry, you were determined to go your own way - too bad'. He has given us a choice to love him, accept him, or to not - love does that. That is our choice and he won't force it, will just bomb us with love regardless, if he can get a word in edgeways. Sometimes it is suffering that gives him the 'megaphone' that CS Lewis talks about but imo he would much prefer it wasn't like that, that we didn't have to suffer to experience his goodness and immense kindness. It is as though the glamour of life has to wear thin before we can see him for what he is - a good God, always.

Thanks everyone. Sometimes I wish my mum had more faith and would surrender to it as then she could find peace but at the same time I would not find faith easy if I had vicious mouth cancer. She is a baptist but not a practicing one. She was baptised but stopped going to church as some of the congregation were horrible about her mental illness.
I don't think that humans who believe in God are better than non-believers. Think of all the wars that are thought in the name of God. The ongoing fighting and terroism between Muslims and Christians, Catholics and protestants. It's all a big fat red flag as far as I'm concerned.
Personally I don't want there to be an afterlife if it is like this one; far too hard at times. It would be nice if we were all dealt a long, happy life here on earth then we would feel fullfilled at the point of death but I suppose without pain there is no growth.

Well, of course . there is a lot of cruelty and suffereing seemingly built into our world.

And religious people usually dont even try to give an explanation to that.

They are "dont knows" and so are we .

Mollyschamber - "Personally, though this isn't something I would say in real life as I know it's controversial, I think that's what faith is for. A man-made invention to comfort those who need it. "

Totally agree!

Stephen Hawking says that heaven is a fairy story for people who are afraid of the dark.

Well, it must be true if steven hawking said it...
Nice.

I'm not saying I agree with it. Just that it's how he describes 'heaven.'

mankind is born in sin because five thousand years ago, a talking snake tricked a woman, made out of a rib, into eating a magic apple.

No, that's not it.

Sin exists because God made us so that we would disobey his will.

No, that can't be right.

Sometimes prayers are answered, but usually they aren't. The first proves the power of prayer, the second shows that we do not understand God's will.

Nope.

I'm sure I'll work it out in time.

I don't object to anyone else having beliefs, obviously, any more than they don't object to me having mine.