to think that having kids is a little bit selfish?

[nightowlmostly]

Now, before you all have a go, hear me out! I was having this argument at work just now and the guy in question seems to think I'm some kind of monster, and I'm been mulling it over on my way home.

I have two main reasons for feeling this way. The first is that there are so many kids out there in need of a loving home, that having your own is a selfish act?

The other point I have is that there are so many humans on this planet already that the earth is struggling to cope as it is. Surely having kids, lets say only two, is putting more pressure on the earth's resources as they have their own kids and they have more etc?

But, I am not saying that this selfishness is a terrible thing, far from it. We are programmed to reproduce, at a base level and it's hard to fight instinct after all. We are TTC at the moment, having decided that it is what we want, ie from a selfish point of view. Peolple are selfish all the time, buying expensive things they don't need instead of giving the money to charity, spending all weekend doing things they want to do instead of things they should do. It's human nature and not something to be ashamed of.

The guy at work couldn't understand thinking it is selfish, but planning to do it anyway. Is that so wierd? It's like chucking a few bottles in the normal rubbish instead of recycling, it's not right but sometimes we do it anyway.

Am I making any sort of sense?

And finally, AIBU?

You seem to be suggesting that people with disabilities or mental health problems shouldn't have children though. Is there are threshold?

I am just very concerned at the idea of saying that any group of people shouldn't be allowed to have children IYSWIM. It's a slippery slope.

Of course it's selfish. Nothing more selfish than deliberately propagating your own genes. I hate it when parents insist that childless people are selfish - maybe they are, but so are you!

I am a parent, by the way!

If your disabilities are so extreme that you are relying on benefits, of course you should not have a child. Who will support it? Pay for it? etc?

You didn't talk about benefits, you just talked about "a good position" which is obviously highly subjective.

Some people are financially secure but not 100% able physically, I was wondering if they were included in your thinking.

I am worried that in 20 years time when my kids are grown, the world will be pretty shit with most animals being extinct, the world being hideuosly polluted but yes, I chose to have kids knowing this.

Only because I wanted them. We have a pretty much finite amount of resources in this world the more we breed the more we destroy the planet. So yes everytime anyone makes a decision to have a child they are being selfish.

I wasn't thinking about disabilities at all, or benefits. That seems to be top of a lot of people's minds at present, thank you David Cameron! Just in general, in principle. Thanks for all replies, was expecting a harder time tbh!

Very interesting thread, surprisingly thoughtful posts!

However you decide to have your children (birth, adopt etc) don't you think that well rounded person could be doing their bit for the future ie raising someone up who can make a difference in the world around them, and also someone who can safeguard their family's economic future and look after them in their old age... at least thats how it would ideally work

Also i really do believe that DC's are a joy to the older gen, and a sort of reward for the people who have worked their arses off cared for us to get us into the position to be able to helpfully reproduce. i know this is how my parents g parents feel about DD

Just shows how important communites are, in old days and in enlightened communities (sometimes called developing) the wider family and neighbours all helped/ help out. Thus giving everyone the feeling they are helping the next generation, not just the biological parents.
So one should look further than ones own family and be part of a wider community family.

Love the Capability Brown analogy.

So true Issy! Our SW assessment went the same way.

YANBU....By the way I have 2. I have often thought about the environmental/poplation argument but not ever seriously enough that it would put me off having children. And if I'm honest, if I did really want 3 I probably wouldn't stop to consider overpopulation. Overpopulation is quite a big issue though, there's an interesting website and one of the founders (I think), says that we should only be having 1 child at the VERY most 2, so as not to overburden the planet.
Your other argument is a bit more trickcy...yes it's true there are many unloved children in need of homes, but often the biological imperative for a child of one's own takes precedent. And also isn't the adoption process quite a lenghty and stringent process.

Yes, but wanting to hit people, or wanting to just grab things you want, are also 'biological urges'. Does that excuse them?

Also, having studied behavioural ecology to degree level: As group mammals females are not ALL meant to reproduce! We are 'co-operative breeders', meaning that looking after our family is equivalent to passing on our genes directly, if not better.

As mothers, the least we can do is admit that having our own kids in the current sociogeographical climate is an indulgent lifestyle choice, and nothing more. People who think they are making the Earth a better place by indulging their egotistical whim to have 'another you' are kidding themselves! Doesn't make it any less beautiful, but we need to be realistic.

I agree that it is a selfish act - I want a child therefore I have one.

However, I would also like to point out that some of us who have more children also probably live far more responsibly than those who have only the one. For eg, we don't really fly anywhere. One family I know (with one child) fly off skiing once a year as well as a 'family holiday' in the States. They also fly regularly within the UK to visit family. They both drive large cars with large engines. They live in a huge draughty house and their monthly heating bill is not far off our annual bill. They do not use reusable nappies. They overconsume food (often sourced out of season and from afar) and wastage is huge. Everything is 'new'. Water is expendable and not considered. I could go on but I'm getting boring.

My point is that sometimes, the families with more children are actually far lower consumers in many ways yet get blamed for a lot of consumption.

BTW, my view is not objective. Am currently pg with dc4 (but last).

"However, I would also like to point out that some of us who have more children also probably live far more responsibly than those who have only the one. For eg, we don't really fly anywhere. One family I know (with one child) fly off skiing once a year as well as a 'family holiday' in the States. They also fly regularly within the UK to visit family. They both drive large cars with large engines. They live in a huge draughty house and their monthly heating bill is not far off our annual bill. They do not use reusable nappies. They overconsume food (often sourced out of season and from afar) and wastage is huge. Everything is 'new'. Water is expendable and not considered. I could go on but I'm getting boring."

Hang on... how does comparing one family to one other lend evidence to a point that one variable is the causative mechanism for vast differences in behaviour?

No matter how you swing it Buttonmoon, 6 people consume and pollute more than 3 people.

www.spiked-online.com/index.php/site/article/10077/

I personally really dislike these malthusian arguments. I find they are inherently anti human and I believe the only future for people is people.

There are lots of interesting and subversive articles on a web site called spiked which say it all much better than i could.

If you are interested i have put the link above or google 'spiked malthusian'.

Say to him this:

• If we all stopped having children now there would be no human race in 100 ish years anyway.

• Who does he think should be 'allowed' to have children? Does he advocate forced sterilization?

• We have an ageing population - who does he think will work to pay his pension/support him in old age?

• Adopting a child is often a much more difficult route than having your own child. It's apparently horribly difficult to adopt a baby, and not everyone would be capable of adopting an older child who may be emotionally/psychologically damaged.

callisto that is not always the case. Having done the sums, I can assure you that we consume and pollute far less than that other family.

Bacchus I wasn't trying to make a point about wider society or create a rule, simply to point out that sometimes those who are assigned a greater proportion of the 'blame' are actually entitled to a lesser proportion.

Buttonmoon-I assume your children are not in state school nor any NHS healthcare? Otherwise they will be costing the state a huge amount in tax resources.

Hammy Yes they are, but tax resources are not the only resources we are discussing I'm assuming? (although, to be fair, I was focussing mainly on natural resources).

And I didn't say that they weren't consuming or costing the taxpayer anything, simply that it's not always cut and dried that more kids = more consumption in every sense.

I'm going to do another God one.
Over population leads to disease and epidemics n stuff. God wipes em out. There is method in his madness!

Ironically - we were higher rate taxpayers when we decided to have #4! Not that it was taken into account

To me this is a bit of a red herring.

Sure, having children is a selfish decision, in that we do it because we want to even though there might be (indirect) negative consequences on other people.

But pretty much everything we do can be described as selfish in some way, if you include indirect harm to other people.

You could argue it's "selfish" to buy a house - because houses are scarce and it pushes up house prices, so if I buy a house then others will be less able to.

You could argue it's "selfish" to buy supermarket food - because it may drive smaller shops out of business, and some people can't get to the supermarket.

You could argue it's "selfish" to drive - because you're adding to traffic and harming the environment.

And so on.