to understand why some people have a problem with abortion?

[LolaRennt]

I am pro choice first of all, just to get that out of the way.

But what confuses me is that on many threads I have seen if someone in a tiny voice dares to admit that they might have a an anti abortion view they get jumped on pretty quickly.

But surely if someone belives from a purely emotion point that abortion is the ending of a life you can't change that view simply by calling them a woman hater or abusing them? I can understand how pro choice people don't see abortion as a feminst issue or a human rights issue at all and can't get past the view that it is just ending a life.

I am a vegan and I don't wear leather or fur. I see it as murder. I know other people do it (even my friends, husband and family) but for me it will always be murder. Its a purely emotional view that go against what the vast majority of the western world see as normal. But there is nothing any of you could ever say that would make me change my mind. So maybe I can empathise better than some?

My belief is that women need safe access to abortion, no one likes the idea of abortion butit needs to be avalaible because the alternatives would be devastating. Wouldn't it make sense to approach it from that point of view to someone who is anti abortion? Accept that the idea maybe abhorent (and that they arent wrong for feeling that way) but it is a basic human right to not be forced to pregnant and that for many reasons it is the best choice for the woman?

" Queenmary - I questioned what you class as a 'baby' - from conception?2 days? a month? "

Before we get hung up on terms, lets substitute "living human".

However, so that you know I'm not avoiding your question, properly speaking, the term "baby" applies from 9 weeks. Most midwives don't refer to "your little embryo" however, and we don't distinguish between the classifications of development up to that point. Because, lets face it, when it's at the morula and blastocyst stage, you don't even know you are pregnant.

"However, so that you know I'm not avoiding your question, properly speaking, the term "baby" applies from 9 weeks."

Ok, so before that point, before they are (as you said) living humans, why shouldn't women be able to abort them?

" Basically, if it can sustain life independently, then it's life should not be taken*. But if it cannot sustain life, then there is no life to take "

This is logically incoherent and scientifically inaccurate.
Lfe is not defined in this way.

How is life defined then? Scientifically.

" Ok, so before that point, before they are (as you said) living humans, why shouldn't women be able to abort them? "

No! that's not what I said at all.
I said you could use the term "living human" in place of "baby" in my original statement explaining why I believe abortion is wrong.

Let's break this down into itty bitty pieces shall we.

You were asked what you defined as a "baby", you then replied (and this is a quote from you so you can't claim I'm misrepresenting you)

"properly speaking, the term "baby" applies from 9 weeks"

So, if I rephrase it this way - "before that point, before they are (as you said) babies, why shouldn't women be able to abort them?"

What is your answer?

" How is life defined then? Scientifically "

From my O level biology class, this way:

MRS NERG

Movement
Reproduction
Sensitivity
Nutrition
Excretion
Respiration
Growth

queenmary, so good to see that you have finally come round to the fact that an embryo is not a baby!

Empusa
I did not say, as you said I did, that they were not living humans before 9 weeks.
I'm not sure why you need to break something down inti "itty bitty pieces" when it was you who made that error, not me.

I've just explained my answer above.
I said that midwives use the term "babies" rather loosely ( because it's rather cold to talk about a womans precious embryo) so I was happy to substitute the term "living human being" instead.

So you didn't notice that I removed the offending phrase "living human" then?

Go back to your post at 11:21:35 where you write
"properly speaking, the term "baby" applies from 9 weeks"

Are you now changing your mind? If so, what is your new perception of when it goes from being a collection of cells to a "baby"?

quoting @queenmary:

From my O level biology class, this way:

MRS NERG

Movement
Reproduction
Sensitivity
Nutrition
Excretion
Respiration
Growth

An embryo is neither sensitive, nor can it move. Nor does it meet any or your earlier criteria:

"I wouldn't say that this is technically true. At which stage would you say it becomes a "baby"?

as I said to valium, that question is only worth answering if you are agreeing that it is wrong to intentionally kill a baby.
It sucks
It swallows
It dreams
It kicks and bounces off the uterine wall
It sucks it's thumb
It pees
It hiccups
It responds to painful stimuli"

queenmary, you cannot equate a foetus to a living human, simply because it's entirely dependant on the living human that is its mother. Emotionally we may call our foetuses babies, but on a practical level it would be untrue to say that the foetus I miscarried was equal to a dead child. That is an offensive thought to whoever has ever lost a born child. And ofcourse there is a difference between a 5 week old fetus and a 25 week old fetus. One is a tiny little embryo, the other has a small chance of surviving outside of the mother's womb.

The problem that I have with people like you is that you're driven by a religious zeal that puts foetuses first and their mothers second... it's a problematic concept that makes us women vessels of potential children with no say as to what our own lives will be like.

There are many many reasons why one may want to abort a pregnancy but you're too high up on your high horse to see what the reality is for many of us.

And, most importantly, I resent the idea that one day my daughter mught have to face people like yourself trying to prevent her from controlling her own body, her own life, her own future.

" An embryo is neither sensitive, nor can it move. Nor does it meet any or your earlier criteria "

The defintion of movement here, is not a simplistic mechanical one that requires functioning arms and legs.
If that were so then plants wouldn't be alive either.

Do you murder a plant every time you have your dinner then queenmary? They're alive too, and killing living things is murder.

" The problem that I have with people like you is that you're driven by a religious zeal "

Excuse me?
Presume much?

Someone else ( I think it was nationaltruss) referred to the website for godless prolifers.
Abortion is not a religious issue anymore than slavery or any other human rights abuse is.
Are you opposed to human rights abuses? Is that because you are driven by a religious zeal?

" Do you murder a plant every time you have your dinner then queenmary? They're alive too, and killing living things is murder "

No because murder is when we kill human beings.
Other killing is just that, killing.
So yes, we kill plants, but we don't murder them.
Good grief.

metalelephant

" Emotionally we may call our foetuses babies "

Fetus, is the latin word for baby.
It means the same thing.
trying to distinguish between the two is like saying that you don't live in a house you live in a "haus" or a "maison".

What is a human being then? What makes you human?

Alright, using these as a starting point.

"Movement
Reproduction
Sensitivity
Nutrition
Excretion
Respiration
Growth"

At which stage in the development does a foetus exhibit these?

" ^The defintion of movement here, is not a simplistic mechanical one that requires functioning arms and legs.
If that were so then plants wouldn't be alive either.^

...and neither would Stephen Hawking "

LOL! Thank you!

" Alright, using these as a starting point.

"Movement
Reproduction
Sensitivity
Nutrition
Excretion
Respiration
Growth"

At which stage in the development does a foetus exhibit these? "

Right from the moment of conception.

What makes one human queenmary? And more to the point, what makes an embryo human?

" What is a human being then? What makes you human? "

Your DNA.

( you surely don't think that you get pregnant with a baby chimp and it turns into a human along the way?)