To be a bit confused and a bit annoyed that I earn less

[MrsKravitz]

As a senior lecturer at a University than an A level teacher.
Seriously considering changing.

48 would pretty much be a deputy head. 25 would be normal.

25 sounds dead appealing from where I am ...

The bottom of the payscale for lecturers is around £30k. I don't think many start at the bottom of the payscale though, most (at least where I am) will start at around £36k. However, in sciences (I can't speak for other disiplines), they will start with a minimum of PhD, plus 4-5 years plus of postdoc experience (many people have been postdoc-ing for 6,7, 8 years before getting a lectureship). You are then obligated to complete the PGCHE or similar qualification in order to pass the (very long) probationary period.

Inertia I have 3 years supply, 2 years FT teaching (including being hod) and then my lecturing life after that.

Hourly paid lecturers who are paid £40 an hour end up being paid around£10- £15 an hour of work done. £40 an hour is per hour of contact time. 12 hours of teaching will require a lot more than 12 hours work. For relatively inexperience lecturers this can be around 3-4 hours work for each hour if contact time.

Even for experienced lecturers, it is probably 2-3 hours work for each hour of contact time so the pay is nearer £20 an hour than £40.

Hourly paid lecturers though are a slightly different story as they are not counted as academic staff in the same sense.

I must say, I've been on a tenured position for 7 years now (so fairly experienced) and it often still takes a full working day to prepare an hour-long lecture. A quick check with colleagues, shows they spend around the same amount of time. It is a bit galling though when I spend a day doing preparative work for a lecture only to find that students don't feel it necessary to do the pre-lecture/pre-labclass exercises/reading they were set.

The hourly rate is really poor though. Even our demonstrators (usually PhD students, used to assist academics in the labs - not to replace them, I hasten to add), are only paid about £10/hour. This for good graduates with 2-3 years postgrad experience.

So the evidence shows that lecturers payscale is far higher than a teachers one. No need for the thread then really is there? Of course there will be anomalies but if teachers start at about 20 and are capped at about 30 without responsibilities, but lecturers start at 30+ then the assertion in the OP is just wrong.

emsies, you're not comparing like with like so it doesn't make sense.

If I'd done a degree then PGCE, I'd now be teaching. After 3 years, you're saying I might get 25k. As it is, I have done degree, then the necessary Masters, and now the necessary PhD. So at the same point my career, I will be looking for my second teaching/research job, my first postdoc. I would be bloody lucky to get 25k for it! And you have to bear in mind too I've spent 3 years earning very little, unlike the teacher who is paid for three years while they get experience.

I'm not saying I want to be paid more, but just that you should compare like with like.

I didn't explain very well ... you're comparing a teacher with 3 years experience after 4 years of study, who gets 25k, with a lecturer, who might easily have 10 years experience and only just have started getting 25k. It's quite likely if two people start out on a teaching career and an academic career at the same time, the teacher will be earning 25k by the time the academic is still on a grant of minimum wage or, more likely, nada.

Not at all - many teachers have PHDs, masters etc, certainly where I taught. I have 2 degrees and thought about a PHD but couldn't afford it so didn't. Over a career presumably a lecturer will earn far more as although they start later they are paid far better.

I think you start your teaching career when you start teaching personally, so don't see the problem. If you didn't go into academia because you liked the subject and wanted time to study then why do it? I'd have done it if I could have afforded it. If you want to go straight into teaching as it will pay sooner do it and stop whining!

I agree with LRD. It's not comparing like-with-like.

However, I'm more interested in the misconceptions that some people have regarding what academics actually do for the money.

But emsies, they don't have to have PhDs. You can't be an academic without one. Two different situations.

For me, it wasn't a case of 'could I afford a PhD' or 'shall I go earn 25k instead' - it was, 'right, I have to afford the PhD, or I will not get a job'.

Btw, if you 'don't see the problem', why don't you try it? Would you be happy with minimum wage for your first three years getting experience? That is effectively what all academics have to do with their PhDs.

And I have 'started'. I teach now; I'm still doing my PhD.

The two jobs are really so very different though. Academics are not usually "university teachers" - though some may have that title, but for most lecturers/SL/readers, at least in research intensive universities, only a small proportion of the time is actually undergrad teaching. The remainder is spent on the types of stuff I mentioned before. There are no extra increments for taking on additional responsibilities, that is just a given.

Yes - I'm probably going off-topic here UAM.

I was partly responding to emsies saying she couldn't afford to do a PhD, which I'm sure she didn't mean nastily, but which is such a common comment and often people say it when they mean either 'oh, I couldn't be poor like you' or 'a PhD is a luxury I couldn't afford'.

I am very glad the government funds PhDs and I do feel happy to be doing what I do for minimum wage, but comments get me down.

If everyone who could get a place on a PGCE course went and did it, they'd be overrun and we'd have no universities left.

Ive been teaching since 1991 and havent got to that elusive 48K...maybe one day eh?

Sorry for miscalculation Mrs Kravitz, think I'd only read the bit about 3 years supply.

Yes I did cat64... just dreaming

Has he been doing RA / post docs then Cat? As most lecturing posts would start at 30 ish and progress yearly?

I was confused there!

Ah I see - yes, difficult to get above 30k on research scales. I think we are mainly talking about teaching and teaching and research scales in relation to the OP though (as a comparison for salary).

are you a qualified teacher OP?