Actually I'd rather be on benefits

[Spudulika]

... than have to work 40 hours a week in a boring minimum wage job.

Not doing either myself thankfully (working DH, I have well-paid p/t job), but thoroughly resenting the line that the conservatives are taking that the reason many people have a terrible quality of life is because they're not working, and that they'll invariably have a better quality of life if they're not on benefits, because going to work somehow always makes your life better.

I suspect that the majority of mp's have never done these sorts of jobs, and have never had to live on the minimum wage, otherwise they wouldn't be saying this.

IMO what makes people's live shit is being educationally and culturally impoverished, poor housing and poor mental and physical health, none of which are likely to be alleviated by spending 40 hours doing repetitive manual labour.

If work doesn't leave you significantly better off financially, is in itself not interesting, and results in you becoming time poor, so you have fewer hours to read, stroll in the park, meet with friends or watch interesting films on TV (all of which activities are free and accessible to the unemployed), how on earth can you be said to be better off doing it?

And then there's the option of enriching your life by doing voluntary work while unemployed, or studying.

So - if you were an MP and I was an unemployed person, how would you persuade me that I would be much happier cleaning out buses for 40 hours a week, than sitting at home reading the newspaper and listening to the radio?

passiveaggressive - good luck getting that council house. I think you'll find that you'll have to privately rent like most other people who can't get/pay a mortgage.

How else do you explain several hundreds of rejections. Well to be more accurate about 10 rejections. The rest, I was so far down in chances for the job I didn't even get a reply.

But smileyfacestar What if doing the boring poorly paid job doesn't cover things like child care, etc, would you really want to sacrifice looking after your children, only to have pay someone else to look after them so you can do a job that leaves you worse off because you need to pay someone to look after your child? Its very easy to sit there all holier than thou in your dinner break criticising those who dont have jobs. I have a PhD, i have years of admin experience, but i have a nervous breakdown. I was a SAHM for five years until my DD started school.

I am unemployed, believe me, im not fussy - ive applied for jobs ranging from : research sciencits, to teacher (GTP) to office worker, to waitress, to factory worker to cleaner - im not fussy - but i have to tell you now my heart would sink if i got a minimum wage job becaue i know i would be buggered for childcare in the holidays

I often think it depends what you are happy with.
Big huge material goods and nice big hols abroad, keeping up with the Joneses?
Better get to work then.

Like growing your own food, spending time with each other, don't mind being looked down on by the rest of society/family/friends, then there's the what do I do when my children have flown the nest and crave other company....but then you could volunteer, help older people, children, walk dogs, help charities, have time to be extremely fit and healthy, have a pristine house because you have very little, become talented in crafts and other skills such as plumbing because you have to be....

I'll say it, I hate dh going to work while I'm stuck at home with the children. It would suck to have little money, but I always think, we've become this resourceful on a 'full time' wage, supposedly a 'good' wage. We are struggling like never before, we never see each other, we are always nipping at each other because we are so tired, we both want more time to read, go and see friends, enjoy life a bit more.....hmm!!!

But society says no, bad, must do better. So struggle on we must. The stigma is too much, we would feel bad, other folk would pay to keep us (the ones who enjoy what they do surely? :) ) thus we struggle onwards. It's not getting us anywhere, but carry on we must...

I bet you are not useless, what job would you ideally like to do? what skills, experience or qualifications will you need? xstitch

Thanks Edith, I'll look into it as I just had the thought that as he is chair of a committee that might count and I don't want him getting in trouble. Not sure what else he could do around here, we couldn't afford the fuel for one but I might loan him to the landlord for free labour if he's allowed a few hours on the jobs seekers to get him out of the house. Maybe learn some sheep husbandry or something

You can do voluntary work while claiming jobseeker. I know people who do. However, they would also prefer not to have been made redundant from their production line job. Have to live off their redundancy until it has almost run out and than claim a measly £60 per week. How can a person pay all their bills and buy food with that? I really cannot see why people think a life on benefits is fun. Benefit envy is horrible. No ones knows how people fund theit lifesyle. I know lots of people who only cope because their parents/family pay most of their bills.

How are the buses meant to get clean then, if it beneath everyone to clean them?

I agree that there is no something soulless in the perception of such jobs, but I'm not sure it is the minimum wage that is the problem. I have worked in care and shop jobs at minimum wage and enjoyed them, probably because of my colleagues and the human interaction. I do think jobs with less direct satisfaction should be encourage to enhance the teamwork and social (lunch breaks together for example) side of the work, I don't know when these aspects were lost but there is a sort of slavish aspect now, probably trickled down from the highly paid who like to brag about not taking breaks.

Wanting employers to pay a living wage is not unreasonable.

Unfortunately, the system enables people to make the decision to not work. I do know people who have been on benefits since leaving school when they reach their 30s, men in their 50s who have worked their whole lives and yet are equally happy to now be on benefits (as long as the DWP will pay their IO mortgage) and are quite happy to do so.

I found it soul destroying when I was on benefits because I didn't want people to think I was 'one of those people'. I tried to do voluntary work (to put on my CV) and was told my benefits would be stopped as I would no longer be available for work.

Part of the problem with stopping benefits for minimum wage work is that if you are on benefits and run out of money, you stay in the house. If you are working you still incur the costs of going to work - buying work clothes, travel, associated costs - e.g. being expected to contribute to tea/coffee fund, collections for colleagues, cake run, just the normal day to day work stuff.

Not only that, but once you're working a lot of the extras go too, e.g. prescriptions, free milk, free school meals, school uniform, subsidised activities e.g. swimming. So you can find yourself living just over the threshold but being worse off.

It's annoying for those people who work and see people who are cash poor but time rich when they themselves are cash rich but time poor.

It's annoying for the many on benefits who feel they are being tarred with the brush of the few.

Thus ends the lecture.

razzlebathbone, you can fuck right off, i was being rhetorical, if you didnt recognise it then thats your problem, so don't patronise me please. There is no way we would qualify for a council house and no way my DP would walk away from his business, and i am looking for a job because i want to work. I can just about afford my mortgage, there is no way on this earth we coudl afford to rent privately. So really, unless you know someone personal situation, might be best to keep hush about it

I earn barely above minimum wage as a care worker. It's one of those "contributing to society" jobs.

I would love to feel valued and respected by society. By the wider world, I'm seen as uneducated and unskilled. I'm actually educated to post-graduate level in an academic subject and have a nationally recognised professional qualification in my chosen career. If I were an accountant, lawyer, teacher, banker that qualification would guarantee me a five figure pay rise. I get self-respect. Chances are, I probably would be better off on the dole.

Much as I prize and value my self respect, I really would like to be able to afford a nice pair of shoes/bottle of wine/foreign holiday/insert other frivolous materialistic desire

"Like growing your own food, spending time with each other, don't mind being looked down on by the rest of society/family/friends, then there's the what do I do when my children have flown the nest and crave other company....but then you could volunteer, help older people, children, walk dogs, help charities, have time to be extremely fit and healthy, have a pristine house because you have very little, become talented in crafts and other skills such as plumbing because you have to be...."

Sounds good!

And people who LIKE work can still work!

purplepidjin - I bet your clients appreciate you loads.......

It's nice to know that what you are doing is making a really massive difference to people, and not just contributing to the profits of a big company who is more likely than not, not paying very much tax in the UK.

I agree with the OP

Particularly;

IMO what makes people's live shit is being educationally and culturally impoverished, poor housing and poor mental and physical health, none of which are likely to be alleviated by spending 40 hours doing repetitive manual labour.

I dont know of anyone on benefits who can afford 1 never mind 2 foreign holidays a year..[or ever]

Anyone who can is obviously eithe rbeing funded by a relative or getting some money from elsewhere [or in debt]

I have a degree, post-grad qualifications and years of experience. I live in an employment black hole and am not allowed to move due to a court order. I have applied to scrub toilets, admin, shop assistants, professional jobs(gets harder the longer I have been away), receptionists positions, waitress, call centre staff. Even the cleaning jobs want a couple of years experience of cleaning in particular. You can't get experience without the job in the first place.

OpusProSerenus I can't say I envy my cousin. I would guess his outlook on life is very short-term. I doubt he has life insurance (why would he need it anyway, the state would pick up the tab) or a decent pension provision and I certainly wouldn't want the kind of holiday he goes on. At the end of the day, I work, set a good example to my children and they do rather enjoy the camping holidays we go on. In fact, now they're growing up, it's one of the few times in the year when we get to sit down and play cards together, when it's raining and we're huddled in the tent!

Back to the OP - I'd like to think my DCs wouldn't just opt for living on benefits, as it's not what they've grown up with. However, we do live in an areas when unemployment rates are relatively low.

This why a universal benefit is such a great idea. A subsitence payment made to everyone, then any and all work done on top would be worth it to the worker.

It's funny how people don't see low wage jobs as 'beneath' them when the low wage is going to mean something to them pace all the migrant workers in the UK. And when taking casual work and contract work and overtime isn't going to bugger up their benefits.

can you not get experience through volunteering?

if I'd been signing on but had been encouraged to go into a local school to help with reading, or to an old people's home to play cards with the residents, I'm sure I was have had a very strong sense of having done something to contribute to the collective good

Agreed, but where is this a reality? How do you think it could actually be implemented?

"I agree that there is no something soulless in the perception of such jobs, but I'm not sure it is the minimum wage that is the problem"

No - it IS a problem when you work very hard and still have to claim benefits and have no money left over at the end of the month.

But I'd agree that it's more than just money. People who do these jobs aren't usually treated very well. Some of the very worst jobs (industrial and office cleaning) are largely done by agency staff who have no security, no benefits, no pensions.

"This why a universal benefit is such a great idea. A subsitence payment made to everyone, then any and all work done on top would be worth it to the worker."

Have to say, this is one of the very few Tory proposals that excites me. I think it's a GREAT idea. It would really stimulate enterprise.

There are waiting lists for all volunteer positions around here couldn't even get a few hours at the charity shop :(.

Linerunner, very good point. Children need to know that work is normal. I know families with nearly three generations are unemployed and the concept of work is alien to them.

What's wrong then with a system where some people, perhaps educated to degree standard (or maybe not), live off a decent rate of benefits and do do volunteer work - surely a lot more would get done service-wise? Nice parks and gardens, charities helped, more school help = better education, better health service....
Families with younger children say. Both parents are at home raising them, they both stay on an equal footing, employers get a more even keel of workers, both parents have a chance to be educated, boost CV with voluntary work...everyone happy.

That sounds nice.