to be seriously considering abandoning my long held belief that, for me, marriage should come first

[tickTOCKtickTOCK]

Namechanged for this, and have my flameproof suit at the ready...apologies for the length of this, once I started it was hard to finish IYSWIM and I hope it makes sense.

I'm 32 years old, in a loving and happy relationship with a fantastic DP. I'm desperate to have children. It's like I can hear my eggs ticking. And each month I hope desperately that my contraceptive pill has failed. I've not got to the point of crying over it but it's not far off.

What I'm struggling with is that I would really like to be married before I have children.

But DP has been through a horrendous divorce and, whilst he loves and cherishes me, can't get his head around getting married again. He is more than happy to try for children with me, and I believe that he is 100% committed to me and our relationship. I totally understand why he has the opinions he does, and he can understand mine, I think he does want to compromise but the reality of it scares him, and I don't want to force him into something he doesn't want to do.

I?ve been brought up as a practising Christian (CofE, if it's relevant) and have always believed that for me (not necessarily anyone else, these are just my views, others should do what is right for them) that marriage should come first. I feel that if I'm good enough to have children with, I'm good enough to marry, IYSWIM

We can both see each others' POV but we are fairly immovable. It's got to the point where even just the intention to get married would do me. We've talked about it but I don't want to force the issue too much - for all I know he's choosing a ring on his lunchbreak - but how long do I wait? Yes, I know I could ask him, but I don't want to!

Having said that, if I was to get pregnant accidentally (unlikely but the pill is not totally infallible) then I've no idea how I would respond, but we / I wouldn't be questioning whether to keep the baby or not, it would be a given, it would just be a matter of me getting my head around it and then dealing with the family fall out. It would devastate my family and make life much harder for my DP with them if we were to have children before getting married as they are very traditional.

What I really don't want is for me to get pregnant and for him to propose then, as then I'll think I forced him into it and he doesn't really want to.

Should I just think feck it, not get the next prescription filled, and we can just see what happens as I feel time is running out (I know this is totally illogical) and if I wait for him to change his mind on marriage I could be waiting a long time? To be clear, I would only do this with his consent, I wouldn't trick him into having children. He's said again this weekend that he's looking forward to us trying.

I don't even care (well, I do a bit, but not hugely) about not having the big white wedding, I would marry him tomorrow with just the two of us there. He's not keen on the whole big wedding scenario anyway and I've said fine, I could compromise on that, we could have parents and siblings only, to me marriage is about the lifetime that follows the wedding, which is only a day. He said couldn't we have the lifetime first, then the wedding...

AIBU to give up my long held principle? Should I give into my hormones, or stand resolute?

Have you considered undergoing any fertility testing, so that you know what your timescales would need to be?

love all the 'out of wedlock' chat, sounds all medieval.

I wouldn't worry about your family, you already live with your partner, so i assume they'll have an idea that you two have sex?

It would be nice to get married first, but sometimes life doesn't work out exactly how you want. (I'm not religious so I understand i have a simpler view of these things)

There's no time limit on getting married. There is definitely a time limit on when you can have babies, and you won't know what yours is until you try.

I always felt I would want to get married first but in the end met DH when I was 35 and clock was ticking. a year later we decided I should get my fertility tested to check out time scales but I had to come off the pill to do this and before I could get tested found out I was pregnant. I was much more surprised than he was. He said he had expected it. Had DS1 and around a month later DH proposed. It was totally unexpected but very lovely. Interestingly, he said he didn't want to propose while I was pregnant as he didn't want me to think that was the only reason he was proposing. We now also have DS2 and DC3 on the way. We got married in a catholic church with DS1 there with us and he looks lovely in the photos. The priest was fine about it and even talked about DS1 in the wedding sermon as being "a gift from God". We also had DS1's birth certificate changed so that it now shows that we got married. He already had DH's surname etc.

Haven't read all the thread but what about the legal implications of not being married? Do you both own the house you live in? Could you support yourself if he just fucked off? I believe child support is 15% of the father's income, married or not.

I have no religious principles, but I would feel a bit uneasy about having a child without being married just because it is legally less tidy.

I see it as a different commitment to having children. Marriage is the commitment between the 2 people concerned, that will continue whether they have children or not, and beyond the children growing up. And to me, I wanted that commitment to me, and me to him, before having children to whom we are both committed. It was also a public declaration to society that we are a unit (as well as individuals of course ;-)).

OP, you mention upthread that you want a church wedding. As far as I am aware, not all CoE vicars will marry a divorcee, even in this day and age (I find this bizarre), even when they are an "innocent party" - caused upset to my last vicar when he couldn't remarry his own daughter, who had been left by her cheating 1st husband - I think it was the Bishop that wouldn't allow it in that diocese/deanery? That was 10 years ago though, so may have changed, but might be worth thinking about. They will usually do a blessing though (wtf? makes no SENSE! why not just marry them!). So, what about a tiny civil ceremony, could just be you two and witnesses or parents/siblings, pub lunch afterwards, so that you are Married and your close family know that. And then, when he's more comfortable with the idea, a church blessing? Could be a few years later? With a party to celebrate with a wider range of people.

Could he be comfortable with this? Could you?

We are not married and have 1 little girl of 2 and another one on the way. We are both in our 20s so the clock ticking wasn't part of our decision to have children before marriage.

We are in our second house that we have bought together, we jointly own it.
We have been together for 9 years and are totally in love with each other. We will probably marry at some point but we decided that children were more important for us. We know we want to be together forever and are 100% committed to each other so we felt we didn't need a bit of paper to prove it. We looked into legal implications and there was nothing to make a huge difference to us or our family. I know in my heart that I will be be together with my partner forever.

I think if you know your partner well enough you will know if he is committed to being with you for the long term. Just because he doesn't want to get married IMO doesn't necessarily mean he isn't committed to you.

Ps. We couldn't give a monkeys about what everyone else thinks about us being/not being married or our relationship so don't feel it necessary to publicly declare our love!!

I do 100% believe he is the right man for me. Neither of us is 100% perfect, nor is our relationship, and I think if I was holding out for that I'd be single as single could be. I don't want to leave him at all, I'm very happy with him and love sharing my life, home and dreams with him.

I own the house we live in, yes I can and do support myself, I've done it for years, I'm financially independant and so is he. We do treat each other as financial equals and make joint financial decisions IYSWIM.

BumblingBovine - I want him to marry me, I think he already wants to marry me but something is blocking him (this mistrust and fear issue even though as we have already established I am not his ex). If that makes sense?

I've not considered fertility testing, no. What would that even involve?

Sorn, to me I would want to do it all together. Otherwise we might as well renew our vows in 5 years time (he feels the same I think). Its kind of 'do it, all or nothing' if that doesn't make me sound like a complete bridezilla? if we can't have a church wedding the big deal will be made of the church blessing. Not least by my folks.

I do want the 'respect' that more than one poster has alluded to, I want to be Mrs HisSurname, and I want to have at least one ring on my finger before we start trying, to be totally honest with myself.

I've been crying this morning as my BF is getting married in November. She put in an email did I realise she and her DF are getting married on their 2 year anniversary? No, I hadn't - it just threw it into sharp relief for me and shows what an issue this is becoming. I have slapped myself hard with a wet fish and said nothing to her, I'm not a complete cow, and I'm really pleased for her, but maybe this has thrown it all up and off kilter too?

I completely understand where you are coming from, OP. We were married in Church before we had children and it was important to me and, I think, to DH. Comparing us to friends who are not married, the difference seems to be that for us the commitment to one another came before the children. We were family before we had them. And we don't ever revisit the decision, whereas my friend often wonders whether she would still be with her DP if it weren't for the kids.

If it´s right for you I think you have to hold fast to it tbh, OP, I think it´s too big a thing to compromise on.

I couldn´t be with someone who didn´t value being married as much as me.

He was willing to make that commitment to someone else-so why not you?

I'm not sure I understand the lack of respect/ more respect if you're married thing. I have never been shown a lack of respect because we're not married. I'm wondering how that has been shown to other people?

The one thing I would like is to have the same name as my children but other than that I don't see how being married would change a thing about our family.

Fertility testing: I have heard of something called Fertell and another test which can check your egg reserve.

Your DP can have his sperm checked fairly easily.

Also thinking a little more into your situation. If he had such a terrible time with the divorce his whole view of marriage is tainted. He sounds very happy with you and he obviously doesn't want to associate you with his old life and with his old life is marriage. You are not her or anything like her and he knows that but that is still his experience of marriage. He sees you as more than that.

I really hope it all works out for you.

Please don't abandon your long-held belief. If your DH is ready to have a family with you, he should be ready to marry you. Simple as that. You are willing to compromise on a low-key ceremony; he needs to get over his issues and do the right thing.

A friend of mine has suffered for years because her OH can't get over a past divorce and commit properly to her. This divorce was decades ago. It hurts me - it seems to me that he has more respect for an ex of years gone by than his loyal current OH (my friend).

I think if you 'abandoned your beliefs' you'd be unhappy and it could come back to haunt your relationship.

Bess12, I agree with you - I don't see any difference in respect to married/unmarried parents - have never encountered that at all.

Also, Bess12, then why not change your name to that of your children? Nothing to stop you.

tickTOCK - I wanted same name as kids, and dh, and glad I changed (life's too short to fight all the battles, and I found I wanted to anyway), but I cannot stand Mrs. Makes me flinch every single time I hear it. So I am that pillock that replies Dr to the Miss or Mrs question (I have a PhD). However, I do love being married. Not sure why. Like someone else said, it's not logical, but it did feel right.

I think this thread just highlights that different people feel differently about it, and in today's society (cliche alert for that one) there's is no reason to do otherwise than what is right for you and oh. Sod everyone else, it's just up to the two of you, which is your problem because you feel differently about it. You just have to talk, negotiate and compromise. The roots of a good marriage or non-married-long-term-relationship :-)

And most extended family come round to whatever you do, especially once you get as far as a scan pic!

havent had time to read the thread, but from your op, it seems that babies are ultimately more important to you. I may be wrong, but thats how it comes across. Youre upset at not being pregnant, but you dont cry every month cos you're not married.

Anyway, you have to decide which is more important to you - having kids at all or maybe never having kids if your dp doesnt want to get married.

Could you get engaged, with no real plan for a wedding ever, then try for a baby then?

To me there's no point in being engaged if you're not getting married - that's just me though.

Never having children matters more than not having children.

We compromise and negotiate on everything else, it's just this which is a white elephant in the room.

I'm not at the stage of giving him an ultimatum.

I'm going to try and chill out about it til after our holiday. That's only 2 months.

I presume that he married his ex before children?

I wanted to be married before children.

But I also wanted someone who was willing to make that commitment to me first-not only if children came along.

I have found from my own experience and from talking to friends that the best way to get a man to propose is to stop mentioning marriage/proposing at all.

Yes, he was married before they had DSD.

I haven't mentioned it much, am making a concerted effort not to, tbh!

My point re getting engaged was more that it may just naturally lead to that in the future. Also, if dp is totally resistant to even getting engaged for a long time, then you know where you stand totally.

But really, it boils down to -
option 1) Never being married and never having kids, and staying in the relationship, but ultimately resenting him.
option 2) having kids and staying with the man you love, and who loves you.
option 3) leaving him to find a potential husband and father of your kids.

Note - option 3 could end up being exactly the same situation anyway.

Or stick to your principles, show him you are a rock and wait till you are both in the right place at the right time.
He needs a strong woman with principles! Show him what you are made of!
And dont forget that a baby is a gift from God, not a right.

Interesting thoughts, tickTOCK - keep us posted. Might be worth trying one last, cool, summer of not mentioning the white elephant, before you introduce him to your DH - my DH proposed on the last day of a special holiday when we were living abroad (in Japan) for a year - not the last day in Japan, but the last special traveling to places day - some people need deadlines more than others !