to be seriously considering abandoning my long held belief that, for me, marriage should come first

[tickTOCKtickTOCK]

Namechanged for this, and have my flameproof suit at the ready...apologies for the length of this, once I started it was hard to finish IYSWIM and I hope it makes sense.

I'm 32 years old, in a loving and happy relationship with a fantastic DP. I'm desperate to have children. It's like I can hear my eggs ticking. And each month I hope desperately that my contraceptive pill has failed. I've not got to the point of crying over it but it's not far off.

What I'm struggling with is that I would really like to be married before I have children.

But DP has been through a horrendous divorce and, whilst he loves and cherishes me, can't get his head around getting married again. He is more than happy to try for children with me, and I believe that he is 100% committed to me and our relationship. I totally understand why he has the opinions he does, and he can understand mine, I think he does want to compromise but the reality of it scares him, and I don't want to force him into something he doesn't want to do.

I?ve been brought up as a practising Christian (CofE, if it's relevant) and have always believed that for me (not necessarily anyone else, these are just my views, others should do what is right for them) that marriage should come first. I feel that if I'm good enough to have children with, I'm good enough to marry, IYSWIM

We can both see each others' POV but we are fairly immovable. It's got to the point where even just the intention to get married would do me. We've talked about it but I don't want to force the issue too much - for all I know he's choosing a ring on his lunchbreak - but how long do I wait? Yes, I know I could ask him, but I don't want to!

Having said that, if I was to get pregnant accidentally (unlikely but the pill is not totally infallible) then I've no idea how I would respond, but we / I wouldn't be questioning whether to keep the baby or not, it would be a given, it would just be a matter of me getting my head around it and then dealing with the family fall out. It would devastate my family and make life much harder for my DP with them if we were to have children before getting married as they are very traditional.

What I really don't want is for me to get pregnant and for him to propose then, as then I'll think I forced him into it and he doesn't really want to.

Should I just think feck it, not get the next prescription filled, and we can just see what happens as I feel time is running out (I know this is totally illogical) and if I wait for him to change his mind on marriage I could be waiting a long time? To be clear, I would only do this with his consent, I wouldn't trick him into having children. He's said again this weekend that he's looking forward to us trying.

I don't even care (well, I do a bit, but not hugely) about not having the big white wedding, I would marry him tomorrow with just the two of us there. He's not keen on the whole big wedding scenario anyway and I've said fine, I could compromise on that, we could have parents and siblings only, to me marriage is about the lifetime that follows the wedding, which is only a day. He said couldn't we have the lifetime first, then the wedding...

AIBU to give up my long held principle? Should I give into my hormones, or stand resolute?

I would research all the practical and legal implications of being married vs not being married. Find out what it would take to get all the same things dealt with legally. Then offer the choice of doing all that or getting married any which way he is comfortable with. You need to make sure you are properly protected before you start a family. Not so much a trust issue but, morbid as it is, what if he dies? Think about how you see things panning out. Would you want to be a SAHM? Would you be happy to become dependant on someone who won't make that commitment to you? Or would you go back to work anyway?

Think, think, and think some more. Get legal advice. Keep talking to your DP. It might not be the most romantic way to think about marriage but it is important.

It's not nonsense to think about the clock ticking. I learnt the hard way that wanting to have a baby and actually making it happen are not the same thing. The older you get the harder it could get to conceive.

Just propose to him yourself. Yes its nice to be asked but doesn't sound like he's going to.

DH and I split up when he said he didn't want marriage or children (again!) and I wanted both. We took time apart and he realised he did want those things if they were with me. I wanted to be married first, it was important to me to have a stable relationship . Our DD came along 18 months later and it nearly destroyed our relationship (my pre and post natal depression, his depression and subsequent addiction). Life's not what you always think it will or should be. Having said that we decided to work it out, stay married and are getting there. Funnily enough it was talk of divorce that kept us together! Not sure what I am saying - if it's good or bad, I mean - but for me marriage comes first, it's just my story.

We already live together, have done since the start of the year. We both work FT and are each other's beneficiaries for insurance policies and are for pensions. The house is in my name as he moved in with me, until we marry that won't change. His will names me as his beneficiary. My will names half my parents, half my niece at present as I haven't gotten around to changing it - it's on the list of things to do.

Diddl - I know. I don't get it either.

Eggy - it's not that he's saying 'I will never marry' its more that he's said 'I'm not happy to get married again just yet' - I'm paraphrasing, but that's the essence of it. I think he thinks people will go 'DIVORCED!! NOOOOOOOO!!' and throw rotten fruit at him or something and he's worried we'll get divorced in future and then they'll be able to go 'TWO DIVORCES? LOOOOOSER'. Or similar.

Juggling, thank you, I'll try it that way round and see how it sits for a couple of months. It's a new view point which is what I need

In my heart of hearts I think he will propose, we will get married - the question is when. And if it's soon enough for me?

consider this scenario:

you wait a couple of years.

you get married.

you then TTC.

and ttc.

and ttc.

you would then resent the waiting. alot.

you then hate your Dp for making you wait.

you divorce.

a scenario worth avoiding?

Is it the actual wedding that's the stumbling block for him, or the being married? If it's just the wedding, I reckon you should consider compromising on that. Do it in a format that he feels ok with.

And all the best for your TTC, btw!

The fact that you do feel hurt is important ticktock. Does he realise this? Have you talked to him indepth about what's stopping him from getting married now? It isn't really fair of him to make you wait an indefinite amount of time. I get the sense from what you're saying that you want your life to move forward and getting married is a big part of that. He on the other hand wants things to stay the same and that might be due to a fear that if things do change then it'll all go tits up like his last marriage did. He can't continue to live in fear like that and perhaps you need to talk to him about his fears to see if you can help him to get past them.

Well, I can see the "pressure" to stay married for the 2nd time iyswim-but if you had children the pressure to make things work would still be there.

Is it that he would rather wait & see if children come along & then marry?

I wanted to marry first because it was just right for me-it´s hard to explain-just a feeling.

We wanted to be "husband & wife".

But I also wanted any children to be legally his without having to sign anything to declare it-and so did he.

I will give the view of a woman who was married once before and did not want to get married again AT ALL. In fact I said some pretty awful things to dh (when he was a dp) about marriage based on my first experience. I found myself in tears at the prospect of marriage and really felt like I did not want to do it at all so my dp at the time left it.

We had already decided to have a child and I was pregnant when DH (Dp then) brought up marriage again and insisted that he wanted to get married

DH didn't do any of the "I only want to marry you if you want to marry me " stuff, he just stated what he wanted clearly and calmly, and withstood some some pretty awful behaviour from me.I think it was hard for him as when I did say I would get married I was pretty ungracious about it really. I agreed bacause I loved dh and I thought he views were as valid as mine and I didn't want to lose him but I was defintely not the glowing bride!

DH just accepted my feelings and we got married. In fact as soon as we were married I realised that I was very happy to be married to dh. I still am 6 years later

Looking back, I realise that I had been so utterly devastated by my divorce that I had real difficulty trusting anyone else. DH managed that by being utterly trustworthy in that he wanted to marry me even when I was behaving like an arse. In the end I realised that he had to really love me because he wasn't put off by my behaviour and my frankly unreasonable (in our situation) objections to getting married.

I don't know if this is the case or not for the OP but I do think that a person case should be willing to get married if they love their partner and are planning children with them if their partner is really keen to get married even if they themsleves aren't. If the Op' dp loves her and wants to be with her and to have a child with her than I fail to see how getting married is any more of a commitment than that.

The problem is that this is a rational view (and was dh's when he insisited on getting married to me) but I would be willing to bet anything that the Op's dp is not thinking or feeling rationally at all.

I absolutely understand where you're coming from OP but, if marriage is important to you, don't have children in the hope that he'll want to propose anyway.

Having children is a far bigger commitment, I think, than getting married (can be). If he's willing to have children with you, he loves and trusts you, then why not marriage?

I have a friend who has 3 of her own children and a new baby by a man who won't marry her. She's so sad and desperate to marry him but he just won't. I agree with you... good enough to have children with then good enough to marry.

It's nothing to do with your family/friends, it's about what you want and you can live with.

Can I just say I feel very honoured that you are all being so honest and open with me? Thank you all.

It's the actual wedding, not the marriage, which I think is the problem. I would do it however he wanted, really. I've told him that. TBH I would struggle with not getting married in a church, but if he really felt strongly I would concede, so long as we had a blessing at some point.

But I also want to be able to celebrate the fact that I'm with such a wonderful man, I'm so proud of him and very happy to be with him, and after a rollercoaster of a decade for both of us it would be lovely to stand up and take my vows in front of people who have supported me through some pretty rough times. If I can't have that, it would be a major concession on my part, but one I would make. I'm not ashamed to be with him at all, I don't want to have a hole in the corner affair, but equally it's not like I want to spend thousands of pounds having 200 people to dinner! I'd be happy with a lunch in the garden for 20, to be frank.

Writer, yes he does realise that I'm hurt by this. I am hoping that when we go away in July he'll be able to take a step back and get some perspective on how far he has come, and how far we have come as a couple, over the past 4 years. For all I know he's planning to propose whilst we're in Italy!

Eggy, I really really don't want that to be the case. If it gets to the end of summer and there is no further move forward, we will be talking very seriously.

I always wanted to get married before children but didn't. I wasn't even engaged until 5 months gone which was far from my ideal.

HOWEVER it was a planned pg - joint decision to stop the pill and have lots of unprotected sex to make a baby. We decided we wanted to get on with it and weddings take a while to organise (even quickies).

I struggled a little but ultimately was able to remember that dh had made a huge commitment to me through our joint decision. Life had just tumbled us along with no concerns for plans. This helped me to avoid the 'forcing him into it' feelings. He had made a much bigger commitment before proposing.

If you wait because of your 'principles' then you are planning more than life really allows for. Seize the moment - but do decide it together.

We are now married and had an amazing day with dd there but it took a while to get the old bugger to do it even post dd! Legally though it is much wiser to be married with children and having same surname is nice. Don't abandon principle of marriage but do abandon principle of timing is my ultimate advice I guess.

BTW 37 posts and no YABU votes yet - am I safe to take off my flame retardant suit?!

Have the kids, forget about the marriage. From your post it seems like your main priority is having children asap. Your DP is willing as well so strike while the iron is hot. Your DP has valid reasons for not wanting to get married right now so respect them. Getting married can wait, children less so.

From your circumstances it looks like you are well protected legally and that marriage would not add to that (in fact you would have to share the equity in your house).

Do you really want to pressure your DP into a wedding which he is not particularly keen on? Why not wait until the hurt of his divorce has faded. Having kids together will be much more of a commitment than marriage can ever be.

Would also like to add that saying vows post experiencing that rather large relationship tester of a newborn baby and no fecking idea what to do with it felt very very real and secure the icing on the cake. No doubt whatsoever and a huge bond and experience between us.
I would go as far as to say that being a brazen hussy with a bastard daughter made my wedding ceremony MORE romantic. Heehee.

There's a lot of wisdom here for me to chew over (and via me, DP!)

Thank you all

xx

I was married before and said I would never get married again, I did'nt have a bad marriage but could not see the point,then I met my DH, neither us wanted to get married,we were happy then DD came along and the oldfashionedness in me decided we should get married,so I do understand your point,we got married when I was pregnant with DD. Just a small wedding just for family. I do feel having children changes it.
Did he have children from his 1st marriage OP?

Just to say I had a church blessing abroad, which was very special to us (we could have had.the legal bit abroad too if we'd wanted). Just trying to think of ways to get his head round it, and get what you want too (I was a reluctant bride but it all worked out in the end!)
If I could go back in time I would have started earlier ttc, that's the one thing I'd change.

Yes, 1DD who is lovely and we get on really well.

I don't want him to think we have to get married because I'd be pregnant.

BTW I was genuinely feeling the love when I put a couple of kisses on the thread, I know IWBU in MN-land by doing so, sorry

I'm still so undecided but am leaning more towards the wait until after holidays theory (only 3 mone months) and see what transpires.

3 mone months? 3 more months. Crikey.

He's dead against doing any of it abroad idea igggi, not least as his mum wouldn't be able to be there.

I didn't know you could just have a blessing though, maybe the two of us could do that as a private thing? Where was that, if you don't mind me asking? (I mean which country, not which church, obviously, I'm not that nosy!)

Have pm'd you.

I have been musing why it is so important to me (or anybody else) to do things the traditional way since my last post and I still can't put my finger on it.

I suppose I don't consider marriage a lesser commitment than having children. You need to go through a legal process to walk away and regain your freedom if you want out from a marriage. If you aren't married either partner could walk out the door, leaving their partner and children behind and they are already free of any obligation in law to that partnership - it is like it never happened (setting aside property issues but I see those as separate because some people don't own their property). However, supposing that it is true that marriage is a lesser commitment that still begs the question of why you don't want to be married if you are prepared to be the extra level of commitment of having children. If you aren't getting married because you don't want that sort of legal commitment then surely you aren't commited enough to have children? Crikey does that even make sense!!? It is a very emotional thing, isn't it, so probably not logical at all really! That isn't a personal attack on anybody's choices by the way - that is just how it feels from the point of view of somebody (me) who does think marriage is important.

Anyway, aside from all that, I just wanted to say that although religion isn't really the central point here, there is a possibility that if you had a child without being married that you wouldn't be able to get that child baptised until you were. It depends of course on your view of baptism as to whether that is an issue. Our seemingly modern vicar won't baptise the children of unmarried parents, he will only hold a thanksgiving service for those children. I don't agree with him personally but it might be another thing to think about (or not, as the case may be).

Oh and it seems I was wrong - we are not as in the minority as I thought we would be. I have seen more general threads about having children before or after marriage and the number of married people are massively in the minority but this thread doesn't seem to have turned out that way.

I wouldn't have had DCs without being married. To me, being husband and wife is the bedrock of what makes a family and all the other relationships grow and draw strength from that commitment.

What worries me about your posts is that you have written 'for all I know he is buying a ring on his lunchbreak', and 'for all I know he is planning to propose on holiday'.

Marriage is clearly very, very important to you. And whether that is logical or not, you have to acknowledge that fact fully. Do you really want to be thinking that every time there is a milestone in your life? Every holiday, birthday, anniversary of starting dating, anniversary of moving in together?

I think that if you are going to have children without being married, then you have to accept, and really accept, that you may never get married.
Your post title talks of marriage coming first, and the implication is that if it doesn't come first then it will come second (to having children). But what if it doesn't? Are you prepared to accept that, because a lifetime is a long time to feel resentful towards your DP that he hasn't married you.

I think it's important because there's a sense of security in being married. I know you can still get divorced but at least at some point you have explicitly stated in law your wish to stay together and from a legal point of view you are protected. I know it's a very unromantic way of looking at it but being a parent is the biggest job you are ever going to have in your life. You wouldn't go into business with someone on a huge venture without insisting on a contract so why would you go into parenting with someone without a contract? I think getting married is a chance to take stock and say explicitly to each other and everyone you know that your relationship is serious and hopefully life long. Without it there is a sense that the relationship is just drifting along with no solid status (for me I mean, this is not necessarily true for everyone).

Ali, you've raised some good points and i'm going to have to think about them carefully. The comment about the lunchbreak was slightly tongue in cheek, but you are right, marriage is very important to me. I'm not sure if I'm prepared to accept a lifetime of not being married if we have children. I'm not sure if he expects that.

I don't want to be hopeful everytime there is a milestone, no. Maybe this summer's holiday is one last shot?

But equally I don't want to hold him a hostage to this. I have made him sound horrid and stubborn, he's not apart from this one issue, he's really a lovely lovely man, and I don't want to resent him.

If it's a choice between having him and not being married, versus not having him and not being married, actually I'd take the not being married.

Niecie, it does make sense, that's why I'm struggling with it! Why do one and not the other? (assuming the option is there to have children, which I don't know at the moment as it is untested!)

Writer - you've said what I was trying to say so clumsily.