to be seriously considering abandoning my long held belief that, for me, marriage should come first

[tickTOCKtickTOCK]

Namechanged for this, and have my flameproof suit at the ready...apologies for the length of this, once I started it was hard to finish IYSWIM and I hope it makes sense.

I'm 32 years old, in a loving and happy relationship with a fantastic DP. I'm desperate to have children. It's like I can hear my eggs ticking. And each month I hope desperately that my contraceptive pill has failed. I've not got to the point of crying over it but it's not far off.

What I'm struggling with is that I would really like to be married before I have children.

But DP has been through a horrendous divorce and, whilst he loves and cherishes me, can't get his head around getting married again. He is more than happy to try for children with me, and I believe that he is 100% committed to me and our relationship. I totally understand why he has the opinions he does, and he can understand mine, I think he does want to compromise but the reality of it scares him, and I don't want to force him into something he doesn't want to do.

I?ve been brought up as a practising Christian (CofE, if it's relevant) and have always believed that for me (not necessarily anyone else, these are just my views, others should do what is right for them) that marriage should come first. I feel that if I'm good enough to have children with, I'm good enough to marry, IYSWIM

We can both see each others' POV but we are fairly immovable. It's got to the point where even just the intention to get married would do me. We've talked about it but I don't want to force the issue too much - for all I know he's choosing a ring on his lunchbreak - but how long do I wait? Yes, I know I could ask him, but I don't want to!

Having said that, if I was to get pregnant accidentally (unlikely but the pill is not totally infallible) then I've no idea how I would respond, but we / I wouldn't be questioning whether to keep the baby or not, it would be a given, it would just be a matter of me getting my head around it and then dealing with the family fall out. It would devastate my family and make life much harder for my DP with them if we were to have children before getting married as they are very traditional.

What I really don't want is for me to get pregnant and for him to propose then, as then I'll think I forced him into it and he doesn't really want to.

Should I just think feck it, not get the next prescription filled, and we can just see what happens as I feel time is running out (I know this is totally illogical) and if I wait for him to change his mind on marriage I could be waiting a long time? To be clear, I would only do this with his consent, I wouldn't trick him into having children. He's said again this weekend that he's looking forward to us trying.

I don't even care (well, I do a bit, but not hugely) about not having the big white wedding, I would marry him tomorrow with just the two of us there. He's not keen on the whole big wedding scenario anyway and I've said fine, I could compromise on that, we could have parents and siblings only, to me marriage is about the lifetime that follows the wedding, which is only a day. He said couldn't we have the lifetime first, then the wedding...

AIBU to give up my long held principle? Should I give into my hormones, or stand resolute?

I really believe the thing you need to get other is the idea that if a proposal comes second to falling pregnant/having a child you have 'forced him into it'.
You sound very much in love with him - do you really think you're in love with a man who would be forced into proposing?
I very much agree on the importance of marriage by the way I would just urge you not to sweat the timing of events.

I wouldn't have a child with someone who wouldn't marry me.

Is he saying that his first wife is the only wife he'll ever have? I thought he didn't like her? He's giving her far too much power if he's saying that. You say you've been with him four years, so two years before his divorce? Has he really been so badly hurt that he thinks every future relationship will eventually hurt him?

He has fewer rights if you have a child together without getting married. Oh and for what it's worth, I think a man who refuses to marry you has a bloody cheek expecting a child to have his name.

On the one hand I am thinking if he is definitely committed to you then chuck away the pills and get going TTC.

However he's not just asking you to forgoe a wedding before the babe he's asking you to forgoe the sort of wedding you might like by dictating the size and style. That all chips away at what you had hoped for, for yourself.

Do you feel like you are making all the compromises?

I'm sure he is lovely but what you need is just as important and shouldn't be dismissed.

Haven't you always known his views on marriage? and chose to stay with him and live with him knowing that he didn't want to remarry.

Aren't you now changing the goal posts within which you both entered into this relationship?

I'm coming at this from the POV of a confirmed atheist - but my experience has been that having children is one of the biggest tests of a relationship. If you can still have a laugh with each other while you're so hormonal and sleep-deprived and stressed and frazzled that you can barely construct a sentence, then your relationship's a good, strong one. And then you know that the marriage vows can be made - because you've been tested, you can say "in sickness and in health" and know it's true. It's not an unknown.

And marrying DH, with my oldest children as witnesses and our younger children right next to us, was wonderful - it was all those things you want, the public declaration of love and commitment, but with the added bonus of being able to show what we'd already achieved.

I think in your position one thing I would make clear - if we had a child and he did not want to get married, the child would have MY name, not his.

Difficult one.

Like you I'm quite staunch in my religious views. Personally, I would never have considered having a child out of wedlock. Some people choose to do so and that's their prerogative.

Like any couple we have up and down times. I do believe during one patch, if we hadn't been married one of us would have walked away. The fact that we were married was the spur to work through the issues of that particular time. To have not been married would have made it 'easier' to walk away.

When we looked to making a life together he wanted to live together first. That was something I'm not comfortable with but I compromised and we found a nice little house on a short 6 month let. The stipulation being, if, at the end of 6 months he could not commit to marrying me then I walk away because clearly we are not going to make a long term go of it.

He proposed within 3 weeks and we were married within 5 months .

Back to the OP - because he's been married before and badly hurt, thus refusing to entertain the idea of marrying you, it kind of projects that he distrusts all women, including you. That (distrust) is not a basis for having a child and creating a stable home. Was it you that hurt him? no!

I would suggest the tried and tested list thing .... pros and cons of being married, compare lists.

Don't go up the 'forgetting the pill route' - that would make you distrustful.

I would be very uncomfortable with the idea that because he's been burnt once, he believes you will do it. It's totally dysfunctional behaviour if you think about it- why is he even with you if he suspects you might rip him off?

I have sympathy because it's very tricky- fact is your pregnancy might make him realise how great marriage could be- this has happened to the women I know who've done this- but then he might not. And you will always wonder if he did it as it was expected.

I wouldn't like to have children out of marriage and I've adored being in a childless marriage for a few years. We married the year before bil & sil who had a 2 YO unplanned daughter when they married. I remember at our wedding all sorts of jovial jokes about "sure you don't want to back out?" someone tried it at BILs before someone piped up "well he doesn't have much choice really does he?" which I think was really really not what I would want. I wanted him to want to marry me because he could, not because he had to.

For me even more important than marriage before kids, was the knowledge that we shared values and aspirations and (I shudder as I type) 'life goals'. We both knew we wanted the same things, and we wanted to go about them in the same way (if that makes sense). For me a very important part of this was attitudes to marriage and also sex.

Only you can judge whether this is a small thing which you can compromise on, or if it is more fundamental to you.

Ticktok, same situation here- waited for 6 years, then at 30 gave up on idea that DP was ever going to come around to the idea of marriage anytime soon. I wanted a baby so we agreed to start trying.

Unfortunatly I found I had fertility issues- 4yrs of NHS treatment later we had DS. If I had left it a few years later I would have been even less likely to concieve and also would have been over 35 (and so much less fertile & also not eligible for funding in my area). Just another issue for you to consider- you might not get pregnant straight away.

Hope it goes well for you, I have no regrets- well, I'd still like to be married but DS is a HUGE compensation!

This is a difficult one. Its hard to go against your beliefs. I got married before having DD. We both wanted children but we both wanted to get married first. I don't know what i would have done if DH did not want to get married and i did. I'm not religious and my parents had my sisters before they got married so there is no real reason why i wanted to do it, it just felt right to me, but that's for me. Could you look into a church blessing but not legal marriage?

I would think about it and how you would feel if the pill did fail you and you were pregnant. try to visualise the doctor telling you you're pregnant. does the issue of marriage still come up? its not the best advise but a way of looking at things. does your DP know how important it is to you? maybe he would go ahead with the church blessing if he knows there is not going to be any messy legal bother. afterwards there is nothing stopping you from changing you name by deed poll to ticktock DP. its kind of a compromise.

There was no way i was going to have children without getting married. I know this is an old fashioned view, but i think that you are given more respect if you are married .
The parents of dd1 best friend are not married and refer to each other as '
'boyfriend an girlfriend' which i think is ridiculous as they have THREE kids fgs.

We've had many discussions about goals and aspirations and which direction to go in in life, and which values and standards we hold, and we want the same things, broadly speaking. Otherwise I wouldn't be in this situation.

He's known from the start (I met him when he was separated, was nothing to do with the divorce) that marriage and children are important to me, in fact we talked about it before we even started dating properly. Mind you, that was before the divorce turned really nasty...

So I don't think the goal posts have changed, no.

I get that it's totally dysfunctional and shows a lack of trust and gives his ex the power - please believe me when I say his attitude to this is totally different to his attitude to everything else in our relationship it's like he's stuck his head in the sand over it.

Just to reiterate, as I said earlier, I will and would never mess with the pill - we either make a joint decision or we don't, I'm not playing with either him Or a baby like that, I've no desire to be deceitful.

I've no idea how I'd react if the doctor told me I was pregnant, shocked probably! Especially as I am quite looking forward to trying so would probably feel a bit cheated

Hi tickTock.

I just came across your post and I wanted to offer you a big hug. You're in an incredibly difficult position. You love someone you want to marry and he loves you but doesn't want to marry. I have friends in this position. They've both had kids before marriage and are happy. They know they'll never marry their DPs as it is not on the cards but I also know that they both are seriously concerned about finances. Regardless of how they want their future to be, they have to bear in mind that they are not married and, if for some reason, their DPs leave them, they must be able to look after themselves and their kids. It's a constant, back of the mind thing for them and they've been with their DPs for over a decade!

Also, I'm afraid I believe as you do, I got married first, even though both my parents have been divorced twice. I still believe that a child is a far greater commitment than marriage so if a man can't bring himself to commit to a woman publicly, how can he commit to a family? After all, the birth of a child is a life-altering, person-changing, fundamentally earth changing axis event! When you're trying to get pregnant or are pregnant, everyone tells you that and, in your head you know that you don't know what's coming but it's huge and then when the baby is born, everything you were sure of before shifts. Also there is the absolute certainty that most men do struggle to cope with the attention deficit that a baby creates in the mother. I know my DH struggles when I am focused on DD. How would he cope with that?

And rather importantly, if you are not married, he is not your next of kin and you are not his. I knew a lady who had a very scary delivery and her DP was powerless to make any decisions. The doctors had to wait for her parents. How would DP feel then?

If this is important to you, then it should be important to him. You are not his ex-wife. If you get married, there are no guarantees that it will work out but nobody goes into marriage with a guarantee, we go into it with hope.

Take care and I hope I've helped.

It's not about 'religion' and doing what the church says, it's about what is in your heart. The church is there to support and to help you on your mortal journey and to guide you in your own personal search for that perfect relationship with God. Who loves you and knows you! And wants you to be happy and has a plan for you!
No one needs a bit of paper, but there does need to be a lifetime commitment for the sake of the children. What would happen if you lived on a desert island? No prescriptions for pills, lots of passion and companionship and hey presto! Creation!
This guy doesnt trust. Understandable after hes been through a tough time. He needs to trust himself that he's made the right choice this time round and that his motivation is pure love. He needs to trust you, obviously.
He needs some healing before he can make either a commitment to you or the bigger commitment of having children.
Stick to your principles! Ask for Gods help in finding the right path. You know in your heart the right thing to do! My hunch is that hes not ready. Do you have a Vicar/ Priest that you can both talk to? They really are most excellent in helping in a totally real way! They are usually incredibly intelligent people who have seen it all before. Your DP needs to come to terms with what went wrong in his previous marriage and confess. Its a huge weight off your shoulders when you do that and it helps you be sure you wont make the same mistake again. The Clergy dont just marry people they prepare them for marriage. You need this support of your Christian community. If not you are just being a hypocrit and going through the motions.
Be patient, put the brakes on, chill, listen!
Pray! Ask for His help.
Now, if any of that God talk freaks you out, you're not ready to marry in Church anyway!

you could, on the other hand, say 'i want to get pregnant, i am stopping using the pill' to him.

then he has to make an active choice to use birth control himself, or - by his inaction - wilingly assent to having children with you. It is not coercion, so much as clarifying his mind. if he wants to have kids with you, it won't be a problem. if he doesn't want to have kids...it wil be clearly apparent.

I can understand him being put off by a messy divorce, but wouldn't a split between people who weren't married be even messier?

Its not that he doesnt want to have kids! Its the fact he wont marry the poor girl!

Marriage has never been a big issue for me - which frankly is quite lucky because I've never been married, and if I was waiting for that to have children, I'd still be childless at the end of my 30s. As indeed are some of my friends, who probably will not now have children.

I can understand that it's important for you to be married. However, you could get married next week, or next year or in 10 years, whereas having children is much more time limited. Yes, you could wait another 2 or 3 years to start TTC, all could be fine, but what if then you have problems? A good friend of mine is younger than you, and has recently discovered she and her DP have fertility issues, they are looking at months/years of appts and treatment. If having a baby is as important to you as getting married, surely because of the implications of delay, you need to try for the baby first?

(@ eggyallenpoe)

.hmm..in this case, isn't it sort of amounting to the same thing?..

1 - you can marry at any age, and 2 - your biological is ticking

There's a lot for me to think about here. I'm going to take a step back and some time to think about everything before talking to DP, whether that be next week or next month. I wanted to say something to him last night but didn't, I think I need some time to reflect on it all. I think Poshbag's suggestion of talking to the vicar is a really good one, and no I'm not freaked out by the God talk .

RunningMinxie - that's a good point which I hadn't even considered. Thanks for the hug too!

It has really helped to get it all out and I've been taken aback at how emotional it has made me, I feel really stirred up and quite tearful.

Thank you all

tTtT

Sorry to be blunt but you need to decide quickly what is more important as you are not getting any younger or more fertile !

Staying with dp out of wedlock and having children or leaving him and finding someone new who will fit in with your plans.

I would point out men are not like buses :) it can take a lifetime to find the right one. You could maintain your principles leave him and then find you do not find some one compatible who will want to marry you and have children

I have a couple of girlfriends, single now in their early / mid forties who are so sad in their realisation that Mr 100 % does not exist and they have lost any hope of having children.

However you are still young enough to meet someone new. I met DH when I was 34. I left my previous fiancée 6 weeks before our wedding as he announced that he felt whilst he wanted to marry me he was no longer sure he wanted children although he might compromise at 1!!

I decided I could not be with some one who could so fundamentally restrict me on my aim of having children ( yes plural) and left. I have 2 lovely DC and thank god every day I made that decision, did not compromise and left.

Personally I think having a lovely supportive partner with children is more important than marriage, only you can tell deep down what sort of person he is. Once you have DC he may want to formalise the relationship and his relationship with the DC however I agree with other posters you should not think just because you have DC he will marry you and yes that puts you in a more precarious position than being married.

Not sure if that helps, however I wish you luck with your difficult decision

I have a different religion from dh (I am a Christian and he is an atheist). It has been a very happy relationship for nearly 30 years, but of course we have had to make a lot of compromises along the way. We did not get married in church (which would have felt wrong for him), but the children were baptised (which felt right for me). On each occasion, we found that if we listened to each other, it eventually became clear that one person cared more about this particular question and would end up more hurt by having to give way- so then we went with that view. But it does presuppose an absolute trust that your partner will do the same for you.