to think that we actually might be just as happy by ourselves?

[kidsscareme]

Lurked on here for a long time so finally feeling like I can post!

Married for 3 years. Never have felt that maternal longing for kids. My DH likes kids but has no burning desire for his own. We love our nieces and nephews but are so glad when they leave as they are such hard work!

We have been talking lately about when we should have kids and are fast coming to the conclusion that we might not be the type of people to ant kids!

My mum will be gutted and I worry in case I might regret it when its too late.

I like our life as it is, I work very long hours in a career I love and get to travel alot with my job. Id worry Id resent having to give that up.

Its a hot topic at the moment as EVERYONE asks us about the pitter patter and everyone seems to assume its when and not if.

AIBU to think we may have decided that actually no, we wont have children?

(Im aware of the irony of being on mumsnet but I joined thinking the kids where the next natural step)

I know plenty of childless people who are not boring or (as far as I can tell) unfulfilled.

And I know plenty of people whose childbearing was not enough to ensure care and love in their old age- there is no guarantee just because you are a family that you will like each other.

Do what you want to do- it's the only thing that makes sense.

Don't have a child because you fear what will happen as you get older - like one poster suggested. There are lots of elderly people whose children never or rarely visit.

One of our higher needs is self actualisation i.e. being involved in something bigger than ourselves. Some people meet this need through children, some through voluntary work or another passion such as doing up an old house or creating a stunning garden. When people talk about kids making their life more relevant, I think this is what they mean.

But having kids is not the only way, or for some the best way to achieve this.

Whatever you do, do not have children so that they will look after you in your dotage. Before university, I worked as a carer for old people; believe me: more often than not, their adult children were not that bothered by their fate.
It is not the norm for adult children to care for their elderly parents.
You see the reality of human nature in a job like that and not how things should be.

What we are forgetting here is that women had very little choice over whether or not she got pregnant before invention of reliable contraception if she wanted to be married. (I am not going to say long-term relationship because 50 years ago women were either spinsters or married).
Basically, having sex meant pregnancy whether a woman wanted children or not.
Not every woman is maternal. The falling birth rate in the UK bears this out.
I disagree with the 'why are you here if you don't want kids' argument. You are here because there is a large body of people -so what if they are mums! Are they not human first?!- to ask opinions of and because it is a well-known site.

I agree with Hayon. Having spent the last three years caring for elderly parents, I can assure you had they been mentally "there", they would have hated that my own family took second place, they would not condoned that I should run ragged sorting out issues for them. Caring for elderly parents is a bloody hard job to do, and it does not fit neatly in during working hours, and there is no pay. Being sandwiched between young children and care needing old parents is a nightmare, one that very nearly ruined my own marriage. It is impossible to raise a family, earn a wage so you can eat, and at the same time be a carer for elderly parents. This should NOT be your consideration at all. Have kids if you want to, but make sure you can support your own old age without making difficulties for your (adult) children and grandchildren.

YANBU to decide that you don't want children. I have many friends who have made that choice and are happy with it. I am aware that their parents are sad not to have grandchildren - especially when their child is an 'only' - but its down to the couple, not their parents whether to have children.

The only problem I have encountered within my social circle is where later one party changed their mind, but the other didn't. In those cases, one now dotes on his nephews and neices and the other couple separated and one now has children with someone else.

All I would ask is that you don't do what my childfree friends do, which is to corner me at social events and witter on and on and on about why they have decided not to have children and how everything is geared towards couples who do. It makes them intensely irritating and boring!

kidsscareme - I know someone who was in exactly the same situation as you 12 years ago, she's now 44 and has never had a baby. Absolutely no regrets either. Her & her dp jointly agreed this when they got together (early 20's) and everyone expected them to change their minds, but they never did.

Come to think of it I know plenty of others who are childless too, and TBH I've never cared why - it's their choice.

As hayjon pointed out, nowadays people are very lucky in that they can choose whether or not to have children. Choosing not to have children is just as valid as choosing to have them. And you don't have to justify yourself or explain why to anyone.

My only advice is not to think that you have to KNOW you want children for motherhood to be the right choice.

Conversely, do not believe people who tell you it's the most wonderful thing, ultimate fulfilment, blah blah. For them maybe; but ragwort is not alone and I have known a number of women who will admit that, if they had their time again, they would choose to be childfree.

And CERTAINLY don't believe that motherhood makes you a more interesting, happier person: if only!

There are no certainties or guarantees. Your ambivalence shows you have thought about this carefully and are aware that, in choosing motherhood, you will gain some things but sacrifice others. Whether those sacrifices are worth it is a leap of faith. In the end, something - pure instinct, I guess - will either push you towards that leap of faith or hold you back from it. You'll never know for sure whether that was the 'right' decision.

I have found motherhood enormously stressful, exhausting, boring, financially ruinous and a strain on my relationship with my dp. It is also the best thing I have ever done, without doubt. that doesn't mean I can commend it to you. This is not something you will resolve by asking others' opinions, though it may help to get some good counselling to help you sift through your own feelings on the subject.

Best of luck, whatever you decide to do.

"AIBU to think we may have decided that actually no, we wont have children?"

Only you know how you feel now. How you may or may not feel in the future, no-one knows. As with anything else in life, trust your own judgement & embrace your decisions wholeheartedly. But also accept that times change and feelings change.... and be prepared to change with them.

I was never the maternal type and always felt very uncomfortable around kids. DH had always wanted kids but it wouldn't have been the end of the world for me if I hadn't ever had a child.
DD was planned as after getting married (and growing up a bit!) I wanted a child, but for me it was never the be all and end all IYKWIM.
Well, eventually, DD came along and I can't imagine life without her, i love her more than I could have ever imagined possible
I still feel the same about other peoples children (indifferent I suppose) so having DD hasn't transformed me into some maternal being who loves all kids and everything they do!
Also, while I love DD beyond reason, I don't want any more kids, for me, one is enough.
If both you and your DH aren't fussy about having children it doesn't make you a bad person or selfish. You're just making a decision on what's right for both of you and you shouldnt feel pressured into doing something you dont want to do to please your mum or anyone else.

kidscareme, perhaps my advice can be of use to you.

I have no children. I have never, ever wanted them. I actually quite like kids, and babies, and I love to play with them and I babysit often for friends. Like you, I enjoy their presence, but I equally enjoy giving them back to their parents and going back to my quiet, lovely home. As many mothers can't imagine life without children, I can't imagine life with them.

Oh, and I love browsing MN... I have been here for more than 2 years already. I find children fascinating, and I like to read about the experiences of people who have them. Precisely because their life is so different from mine. I obviously do not participate in parenting threads almost at all, because I have little to contribute with, but I do read them from time to time, and I participate in the Relationships one and the AIBU one.

I have also had societal pressure, especially from my dad, to have children. People have told me I would change my mind (I am 35 and hasn't happened), that I will meet the right man and I will want them (my DP is the man of my life, I am madly in love with him, but I still don't want children), that I am selfish (for me, having children without wanting them would be the most selfish thing to do!)...

Not having children gives me time to spend doing the thousand things I love doing. Among these things, I am mentoring a young man with autism, helping teenagers who have problems at school, volunteering in a zoo... Oh, and I am planning to go back to Uni to re-train: I want to become a midwife, and spend several months a year volunteering in the third world.

So as you can see, life without children does not equal a boring, purposeless existence. People who tell you children give your life purpose are usually the ones who always wanted children and never imagined themselves without them... that is great, and definitely the right choice for them. But not everyone is the same.

So who will take care of me when I am old? This seems to be the big question" for childless people. Well... I hope I will do. I have savings, a retirement pension plan, a partner who I hope will be there for me, and lots of friends I spend quality time with... I hope I will have a nice retirement home with all luxuries, and that I will share it with some of my friends and some new ones I will make there. I hope my nieces and nephews (my sister definitely wants kids) and my friends' kids will like me enough to pay a visit from time to time... and if they do, I will be sure it is just because they love me and like me, not because they feel they have to.

What will I talk about when I am old? Another question people ask me... God! I am just 35 and I have loads of things to talk about! I hope I will talk about my travels, the people I met, the adventures I lived, the people I helped... Definitely much more interesting than listening to the other resident who keeps moaning all the time about their own children and grandchildren, who never get to visit them ;)

All in all, the most important thing to be happy is not WHICH decisions you made, but the sheer fact that you were free to take those decisions. People who regret things are usually those who never had a choice, or who were coerced into doing something. When you think about something, and arrive to a decision all by yourself, you already know that that choice is going to mean you will miss on some things... there is no decision without risk. Yes, by not having children I will miss on maternity, on the all-encompassing unconditional love towards your children, the immense rewards which come with it. But by having children people miss on other equally important things. I am not a person who looks back and regrets the things I haven't had. I look forward and enjoy the things that I have. And at the moment, I am immensely happy, and the number of things I still want to do in my life are enough to fill 3 lifetimes.

Whatever you choose to do, I hope you all the luck in the World. With or without children, life is an incredible adventure!

Haven't read the whole thing but want to challenge the "if you are on MN you must want children" idea.

I am on MN and definitely don't want children right at the moment.

I do, however, want to talk to adult women about feminism and shoes and Doctor Who and pearl barley and gel eyeliner and mothers-in-law and who takes the bins out.

There is nowhere else that I can do that.

MN is full of fantastic interesting people, if you think it is only about children and only interesting to people who are interested in children then you are selling it very very short.

I think it is perfectly fine to not have children.

You do need to be aware that the clock is ticking if you think you will change your mind. But if you are pretty sure you won't then it does matter.

Just do not under any circumstances have a baby if you don't really want them, that would be a tragedy.

doesn't matter not does.

With regard to the 'who will look after me when I am old?' thing, I've worked as a carer for the elderly and I would hate for DDs life to be taken over by caring for me in my old age. It's ok if it's taking an elderly parent shopping once a week or a bit of housework but personal care? Dealing with incontinence? Dementia? Id rather be put in a nursing home thanks.
Why anyone would choose for their child to sacrifice their own life to care for them in their old age is beyond me.

OP You are me 18 years ago ...

I had loads of reservations about having a sprog. They were all massive underestimates of the horrors actually wreaked on my social life/ career prospects/figure/sanity ... I love my boys but life was a whole lot less stressed and more enjoyable before I had them ( at 35 and 39 respectively )

I have several childfree mates whose lives sound a lot more enjoyable and fullfilling than mine. Do what feels right for you and your other half and don't let anyone scare/guilt-trip you into starting a family if you don't feel like it!

aurynne that's a brilliant post

If you don't have children, you may be in with a shot at being able to afford the care you will need in old age...

Have kids - it is the only thing that makes sense in this crazy world and you won't 'get it' till you do it. (Also - couples without kids are self absorbed and usually very boring by the time they are in their 40s! FACT!)

Exactly all that money to spend on yourself and all that time to go on fab holidays instead of caravan camps and Butlins. Definitly boring. Oh wait.

OP YANBU, I do sometimes hear people talking about their children in a way that makes me feel very uncomfortable, almost as though they had children, becasue that's what you do. They didn't think actually my life would be greatly improved by children and I can provide emotionally finacially creativly for another human being. I have heard (even on mumsnet) people say they don't really like babies or children and wern't really interested in their own kids until they were teenagers or young adults. That must be horrible for their children, and I suspect the relationship never really recovers. Have kids if you want them, never "just because".

If you guys are doing well for yourselves maybe put some money to the side in case you change your mind for IVF/foreign adoption (if you want a baby)

I am in a similar situation - have no children yet (I'm 30) and feel quite ambivalent about the whole thing. DP however would like to have at least one, and I've sort of agreed that I'll produce one for him, though not looking forward to the pregnancy/birth part at all. I'd rather try to adopt really, but he is less keen on that.

I think it will be OK, we're in a long-term, stable relationship, we should be able to emotionally and financially cope with giving a child a reasonable start in life, there are far worse potential parents out there! But I don't at all 'get' why people want to have children - though I understand that some women in particular feel a very strong urge to have babies, often going to great lengths to do so - especially as the research shows having children does not increase people's happiness and satisfaction levels (quite the opposite in fact!). If I found I was infertile I think it would be a big relief to be honest...

I don't think anyone ever goes into having kids feeling 100% confident and au fait with the whole idea. That said people who decide to go for it obviously have enough of a feeling that its what hey want to do, despite the unknowns and the worries.

If you've not got that feeling, then as you say, maybe its not what you want right now.

That said, if you did go for it, I very much doubt you would regret it. No question, kids are bloody hard work etc and your own lives get squashed out by them. But there are very big upsides too, which you can't really ever experience via someone else's kids, even close relatives like nephews and neices.

Having kids has been good for me too - it makes you grow up and its refreshing actually to have a direction in life which is outside yourself. Don't know if I am making much sense but up till when you have kids your life is very self-determined, it's all about you, your education, your career, your life choices, etc ect. Once kids come along, somehow life expands a bit and the locus is somewhere outside you as well as within you. Provided you've have plenty of time to be the author of your own life in your 20s, this can be a good thing.

That's not to say that we don't all get fed up with kids and their demands, need time alone/adult time, or the loss of autonomy isn't difficult. But its quite refreshing in a way as life becomes very simple - for the next 10 to 15 years, the main thing I'm doing is looking after this/these kid(s), and that's fine by me. I was quite ambitious in my 20s and very into travel etc. Now I'm quite happy to keep my career ticking over for the next 10 years or so, while the main emotional focus is my DD and my DC2 (as yet unborn).

Nothing is so laden with conflicted feelings as your feelings about your kids. I simultaneously wish to god my DD would just give me a bit of space/stay asleep longer/eat up her supper/leave me alone at the same time as looking at her and wondering how on earth DH and I managed to produce such a perfect little child who is so pretty funny bright and sweet. When you're cleaning up the mess for the xth time you wish someone would just take them out for a bit so you could chill and have time on your own. As soon as they go off without you, though, you miss them and look through photos of them with a soppy face. Its reallty silly!

YANBU.

I could have written your post 7 years ago. I never EVER wanted children. Neither did dh. It was just not the right thing for us. We had a great life and fabulous plans and children would not have complemented or completed our life.

And then... I have no idea what happened. It was like someone flicked a switch in me. I NEEDED to have a baby. Need isn't nearly a strong enough word for it. It was completely chemical / hormonal / biological. It was simply the ONLY thing to do. Took me a while to persuade my poor, surprised dh but we now have two beautiful children. Have never regretted having them for a moment. They fit beautifully into our plans and schemes. And yes, my priorities have changed somewhat to include them. I wouldn't be without them.

So, YANBU - make the right choice for you. It's all you can do.

I'm in the same boat and I'm here on MN (amongst other things) to decide if i really want to have kids or not. I'm not sure because:

• I have no desire to be pregnant and every time after reading birth stories here I have to put my head between my knees and breathe into a paper bag not to faint. Terrified of the experience, really.

• I have a very nice life as it is. I don't feel like there is a gap, like there is anything missing. The life as it is would most certainly change and I'm not convinced it would be for the better. I'm also worried about our relationship, which is also lovely at the moment, but I'm sure will suffer due to all the stress. Like when someone posted a thread here that she and DH never fight, and everybody replied with "Ha! Wait til you have children!". Not looking forward to that

• What if something goes wrong and i won't have one of those "beautiful perfect etc etc children" everybody has here? What if I have a severely disabled one that requires 24 hour care? I don't want to offend anybody here, really, but I've been to care homes for such children and I'm not sure all their parents agree with the statement "you will never regret!". I'm also not sure I could cope with that. But I would not really have the option any more then.

• The stress and worry. I have pets and I'm already worried sick if there's something wrong with them or the cats have not been home for a while or similar. I still miss all the pets I've ever had and it has always been heartbreaking when they have passed away. It must be a million times worse with kids. You can never really relax, can you?

So, what do you think? Are those valid concerns or am I totally irrational?

YANBU. We have some friends who have been a couple since university and now in their early 50s. They decided very early on they didnt want children. The have lots of nieces and nephews and are 'the favourite Uncle and Aunt'.

They both had very succesful careers in the UK, travelled a lot and then emigrated. They have full lives and seem very happy together.

excellent post hester

I do think the things to take into account are -

• unfortunately you do need to make a decision one way or another fairly soon
• if you think you may want children, be open to the idea - you may not be hit by the 'desperation' until it's too late
• if on the other hand you think you probably don't, it's maybe worth exploring the fact that the only reason you are even asking might be to do with social expectations - do you think you might want a child, or do you think you should want a child?