to think that mn has gone mad with many posters assuming most woman are choosing to be subservient to men.

[tomhardyismydh]

It seems lately that on MN many posters are taking things to far with this attitude.

This is about many threads to many to mention but it riles me, just because a woman cant drive, might like a bit of kinky spanking, laugh at a joke made by a man or want to call an ambulance in an emergency that it is a slur and disservice to all of woman kind.

I feel this kind of attitude I have come across on does more damage to woman kind in assuming we are second class citizens to men and that we will never have an equal footing in society. I have lived with men, grown up with men, worked with men and socialized with men and have not felt any more put down degraded or second class to men any more than some woman I have lived with worked with or socialized with.

why do we need the constant reminder men are bad, sex is degrading and woman are so woe betided.

just a rant mostly and will accept the flaming

Mitchiest - do you honestly believe that it is not disrespectful to tell someone that they have limited self-respect, don't believe in their own worth as a human being, and haven't given the matter any serious thought?? Because it seems pretty bloody disrespectful to me!

And yes, I shave. Not because I am mad, but because it is convenient for me, works for me, and has not caused me any major problems over the years. And I like it that way - not because I want to look like a prepubescent girl or some woman from a porn flick, but because it is comfortable for me.

When I made my decision to shave my pubic hair off for the first time, it had nothing to do with porn, and was not influenced by anything, as far as I remember, other than a curiosity on my part to find out what it felt like. Neither dh nor I watched porn, nor looked at porn magazines, and I didn't consider discussing the matter with him - I got curious, and got out his razor - simple as that. I was pretty unworldly at that stage, and don't think that there was any real overt influence from porn in my life - I knew it existed, but had never looked at any.

Though I doubt anyone will believe me.

SDTG, you don't have to justify your choices to me or to anyone else on here. If it works for you, that's great.

However, for everyone who has done it for reasons like yours, how many young girls will have chosen to remove all their pubic hair because they are trying to emulate porn stars or because their boyfriends expect it of them? There was a thread on here a while back from a nurse who had seen a massive, massive growth in shaven pubic areas among the under 25s - the generation that has grown up with unprecedented access to porn. Now you could argue that the link is too simplistic, but I think it is very valid that feminists address the issue. Doesn't mean I make a personal judgment about you or your self esteem, and I don't think most feminists would either. We don't pretend to ascribe thoughts and feelings to individual women - that would be arrogant. We are trying to see it in a context of the whole group of women in society. It's surely no different from feeling sad about the number of women starving themselves to achieve the 'perfect' figure and yet accepting that some women really are that naturally thin.

I have to say, when i shave my pubic hair off its done very much for DP and not me, i hate doing it, and i hate it when it grows back, so actually i dont do it very often, but i know he likes it and what is wrong with doing something nice for someone else even if it is a bit of a pain in the arse (no pun intended). I do got alot out of it, because he will be down there for hours, and i mean hours with no pubic hair in the way and it does feel nicer. DP says he likes it because its nicer for oral sex, but it clearly turns him on and i have no idea why cos it looks daft i dont think its a youth thing, becaues i only do the business end and leave the rest, im not having it ALL itchy as hell for days afterwards :)

sunshineandbooks - i think i may have to change my nickname, even im confused. But im not confused about this - shaving ones pubes has nothing whatsoever to do with young girls who diet to extremes to fit in with what society seems to require of them. I'm a big girl, the only time i have ever been made to feel self concious about my weight was by other women!

"It's all well and good disliking feminists when you live in an age where you benefit from what they've done in the past"

Well said. It was only in 1996 that the last of the Magdalene Laundries was closed in Ireland.

How easy it is to forget. Makes you wonder who wrote the history a lot of us here seem to have read.

Sunshineandbooks - I agree that no woman should shave herself (or not shave) or chose her title or chose not to use a title because anyone, man or woman, pressures her to do so. I also don't ascribe to the pubic hair is dirty/disgusting school of thought. I feel cleaner shaven, but that is a purely subjective feeling - hygiene and cleanliness depend on regular washing, regardless of body hair. I wouldn't feel it was my business to comment on another woman's pubic hair or lack thereof at the gym or in the showers at the swimming pool.

Mathanxiety - I don't dislike feminists - I dislike people who try to impose their choices or opinions on me, or who say (or imply) that I am somehow stupid, unintelligent, less societally aware, les respectful of history etc, because of my personal choices.

*less

I'm going to put it as simply as I can. Any women who has bought into the current ideology that all feminists are man-haters, who are ugly with unshaven armpits and a serious inferiority complex, is stupid. Do you not think maybe, just MAYBE that there might be a reason that men paint feminists like that?

Why should women be forced to fight for every little scrap of recognition and equality, and then told condescendingly 'oh you're a feminist, and you probably just want to be a man' ?

I have a feeling that half the MNers on here who complain about feminists, don't have a clue what a feminist really is. They probably also have never bothered thinking about the issues that are raised by a society that teaches us that worth can only be given by men, and can be with-held by men.

Oh wait, sorry. Is that a generalisation I'm making? Why, yes, yes it is. The same sort of one that you make about feminists.

And DavidTenant'sGirl when has any feminist ever tried to impose their opinion on you? Or is having an opinion different from yours 'imposing it'?

Also the likelihood is that actually you probably haven't thought about certain issues as deeply as a feminist would. No I'm not calling you stupid. I'm saying that you're blissfully unaware. That's your choice, but don't try and stop other people from calling you out on it

I am Surrendered so I'll ask my husband to put down the spanking paddle and tell you what I think.

at Hully.

I'm a big girl, the only time i have ever been made to feel self conscious about my weight was by other women!

But why is that do you think?

Do you believe that women are inherently bitchy to other women and men aren't? That's not the impression I've got from your threads.

There are loads of threads on relationships from women whose husbands have made comments about their weight etc. Check out the emotional abuse thread in particular.

Beautiful women have always been more successful in our male dominated societies (to some extent it is true in the animal kingdom too - sexual selection and all that). We now have a very narrow view of beauty that is powerfully reinforced by our media. While we can still let talent shine through, beauty is far more pervasive in mainstream culture. For every Susan Boyle there is Rihanna, Beyonce, Cheryl Cole etc. You don't find many older less attractive women TV presenters in comparison to the younger 'sexy' ones (the same does not apply to men to the same degree).

Women know this. They have internalised it. It is far easier to get ahead in a male dominated world that values the male perception of beauty by pursuing that ideal and pointing out the failures of other women to live up to it. Men don't need to say anything because our whole society is geared to saying it for them.

I am grossly oversimplifying this, making it sound like it's all conscious, and giving the impression that women can succeed only on their looks, which is of course not true, but I hope the principles I am trying to explain are clear enough. I am sure someone else will make a much better job of explaining it than me in due course.

Tambern - I think if you look back, you will find that I have spoken about some feminists, not all of them. I have spoken about a subset who seem to have a somewhat condescending attitude to those who hold different opinions. Frankly, I will object to anyone who attempts to further their own cause or argument by denigrating the intelligence of people who hold the contrary view, whatever group they might belong to.

I was quoting another post there ("It's all well and good disliking feminists when you live in an age where you benefit from what they've done in the past").

But history is definitely written by the victors, judging by the attitude to feminism here.

And yes, women should definitely watch what they say to other women. We should ask ourselves whose agenda we are furthering by making comments about weight or appearance, or fixating on our own.

meh my husband says this is a farking boring thread

at jake.

I really thought I was going to get a flaming with this thread but In all honesty it has opened my mind a little to both sides of the argument.

I think the historical perspective is a very valid argument and so why should feminism die out as obviously most woman are much stronger than our counterparts of 100 or even 40 years ago. It is a political agenda that has as much validity as it always has. I have only ever had any understanding knowledge and experience of feminism as wider social justice theorists such as dworkin and so in the past have been some what ignorant to feminism as a way of life.

But that being said, I still feel that some feminist posters on MN and on this thread are very dominant and forth right in their assumptions that all or at least most woman on a day to day basis are being objectified and validated by the men in their lives in particular partners and husbands I dont feel that is the truth of most healthy stable and loving partnerships. Of course their some that fits the criteria of DV etc but it is doing woman and men a disservice.

and it is my opinion that many...not all...but some feminists who post on mn do have a very skewed opinion of sex and what can be within safe healthy consensual and enjoyable realms of love, passion and enjoyment.

lolol dittany, i only could see the safe healthy consensual in your post and i clicked on thread to correct you! lol as you were :)

'But that being said, I still feel that some feminist posters on MN and on this thread are very dominant and forth right in their assumptions that all or at least most woman on a day to day basis are being objectified' --

You have mixed up anti-DV ism with feminism. Even my decidedly unfeminist granny could see that DV was abominable and so did all her neighbours, many of whom were victims. Feminism has a much broader agenda. It includes the end of DV among its aims. Yes you will find feminists on the Relationship threads -- do you assume all the posters there urging women to call WA, leave while they can still walk, etc are all doing so because they are feminists?

And as for porn, which falls under the heading of safe, healthy, enjoyable and consensual for some, you don't have to be a feminist to find it really, really wrong either.

tomhardy I think this part of your post is very interesting:

But that being said, I still feel that some feminist posters on MN and on this thread are very dominant and forth right in their assumptions that all or at least most woman on a day to day basis are being objectified and validated by the men in their lives in particular partners and husbands I dont feel that is the truth of most healthy stable and loving partnerships. Of course their some that fits the criteria of DV etc but it is doing woman and men a disservice.

My father was a wonderful man, as was my grandfather before him. I have several lovely uncles. My BIL is a truly fantastic man who has been unbelievably supportive to my DSis, and I have several male friends who I like and admire enormously. I am far from being a man-hater and I certainly do not believe that all men are inherently abusive.

However, the objectification of women and domestic violence is absolutely rampant in this country. Womens Aid say 1 in 4 women is abused by her partner and that is based on recorded crime figures. Bearing in mind that personal experience (my own and others), anecdotal evidence on here, and womens aid own research all suggest that domestic violence is hugely unreported, where does that leave us? Closer to 1 in 2 than 1 in 4 maybe?

Then factor in relationships where there is no overt obuse but the woman is still the one doing more than half of the housework and taking responsibility for the running of the house (read the politics of housework here - it makes fascinating reading and shows how men contribute to this without actually seeking to oppress)

Two out of three marriages fail, so most relationship are apparently not stable and loving anyway. Among those that don't fail, again look at RL and the relationships board on here to see the amount of couples that stick together through thick and thin (usually for the DC) despite being woefully unhappy.

I don't believe ALL relationships are doomed, miserable institutions that oppress women, and I believe when they work they can be wonderful for both parties and especially children (my DSis and her DH exemplify this). However, IMO the stats just do not back up the idea that a HAPPY marriage is the norm.

BTW, the feminists I have come across are more open minded about sex than most, because they see the 'rightness' and 'wrongness' of female sexual fantasies to be tied up with female oppression. Sexual liberation surely includes the freedom to be turned on by any damn thing you please without someone making you feel dirty/mad for it.

Unless it's BDSM.

Sunshineandbooks I love your post. Sums it up perfectly, the reason why feminism is still so necessary and needed- and also why it is essential that people whether feminists or not, grow to recognise abusive relationship signs that may not seem clear at first

Onceamai - could not agree with you more ! No need to compete or scream and shout, the wiles we have learned over centuries are far more effective.

Plant an idea in your mans head, let it brew, say nothing, within a week it's his idea. Tell him how clever he is and smile smugly behind his back - mission accomplished !