to think that mn has gone mad with many posters assuming most woman are choosing to be subservient to men.

[tomhardyismydh]

It seems lately that on MN many posters are taking things to far with this attitude.

This is about many threads to many to mention but it riles me, just because a woman cant drive, might like a bit of kinky spanking, laugh at a joke made by a man or want to call an ambulance in an emergency that it is a slur and disservice to all of woman kind.

I feel this kind of attitude I have come across on does more damage to woman kind in assuming we are second class citizens to men and that we will never have an equal footing in society. I have lived with men, grown up with men, worked with men and socialized with men and have not felt any more put down degraded or second class to men any more than some woman I have lived with worked with or socialized with.

why do we need the constant reminder men are bad, sex is degrading and woman are so woe betided.

just a rant mostly and will accept the flaming

Yeah shirley, but lots of people are happy with choices they make that are bad for them; so what? Lots of people make choices that lead to bad things. Men and women do it. Feminists even do it.

To say that if someone makes a choice to do something, it's impossible for them to be hurt or exploited by it, is not true by any measure whether you're talking about feminism or not.

Awesome post, sunshine.

Love sunshine's post too.

I also love in different way (just re-read the opening post) the whole 'taking things too far' bit. Have just about fully and finally extricated myself from weird long term relationship with a man who genuinely thinks feminism has 'gone too far'.

but sunshine any man or woman can also tell you these things it does not take only a feminist to tell us this.

OP, I think that misses the point of sunshine's post -- yes, anyone could have told her those things, but she is (I think) pointing out that in her experience, feminists were more than averagely supportive of those points of view.

also that 'any man or woman' can be a feminist, in fact most feminists do tend to be women or men - as opposed to rabbits or fish or flora

Sunshine - pretty much every woman I know (myself included) would say that to you. It's not just feminists who help and support other women - it's women - and some of us don't like labels. My mother is the biggest supporter of Sahm - I don't think she even knows what a feminist is.
And even within the feminist movement you'll have divisions ( first wave. second wave, third wave) I really dislike 'grouping' women.

Xposts with TH

I like you Tom!

"I really dislike 'grouping' women."

I don't understand this; do you mean that you dislike the fact sunshine referred to feminists as a group? Or you dislike that some women self-identify as part of a group, eg feminists, and don't want to acknowledge their validity as a group? Or ... something else?

I'm not being obtuse, I honestly don't see what you mean, or who you imply is doing the 'grouping' (not being very clear myself here).

My posts are based on the recent thread on whether shaving one's pubic hair is more hygienic, and an earlier one where the OP's premise was that all women should be called Ms, because some women find Mrs offensive.

On both threads I felt I was being patronised and my intelligence was being insulted because I did not agree with the views expressed by some of the feminists posting there. And on both threads I made it perfectly clear that my opinions applied only to me, and that I respected other women's rights to hold differing opinions and make different choices. I often felt I was not accorded the same respect.

So I am speaking from my own personal experience here on mumsnet, not trotting out any stinky red herrings.

Pubic hair thread

I can't find the other one - I assume it must have been in chat, and be more than 90 days old.

Ok - feminism is actually a political movement - so sunshine could just as easily have said ' the Tories helped me ' - the feminist movement has a political agenda and there are people within it who are more full on than others and will identify themselves with different phases of the movement. So who helped sunshine? A 60 year old who identifies more with 1970's feminism, or a 22 year old third wave femininist? Or maybe Sarah Palin? Or a riot grrrl?
or maybe it was just women?
Huh

Sorry - I have found the boycotting Mrs and Miss thread - I hadn't used the right terms when searching for it - or I missed it.

I should say that the OP on this thread happily admits to using Ms for every woman she interviews because she does not like Mrs/Miss, so doesn't want to accord anyone else the right to choose their own title. She would use Mrs/Miss if specifically asked by an interviewee, but never mentions that she is going to use Ms, or offers them the opportunity to state a preference.

God, there's about 600 posts in those two threads. Even if I can find an example of one individual saying you must/must not wax your minge or call yourself Ms what is the point again?

I think some people have not understood the point I was trying to make in my earlier post.

I felt the thread was becoming very anti-feminist, with many posters feeling that feminists were trying to control them by saying you should think this and do that. My personal experience has been the exact opposite. Feminists have been among the most open-minded people I've come across.

Certainly when it come to the SAHM/WOHM debate, I've found feminists among the least likely section of society to denigrate either role.\

Likewise, the whole issue of women being dependent on men by not driving etc is a complete red herring as far as I'm concerned. I can't speak for all feminists but from my own POV a woman is not subservient to a man if she needs him to give her a lift, because my own feminist perspective would say that it's just one thing he does for her in balance to the many things she does for him (like looking after his kids for example). However, it is certainly worth asking why, when we know women make just as able drivers as men (if not better - in terms of accident statistics) are there statistically fewer of them. There is certainly a feminist question in it, but it's not accusing women of being somehow lesser and to interpret it as such is very defensive IMO.

Wearing makeup and shaving pubic hair is certainly a feminist issue, but it is a mistake for people to feel that feminists are judging women who choose to do either. All feminists are doing is examining the cultural influences that pressure us into doing so. They're not making personal judgements. It's no different from us all talking about the detrimental effects of seeing super-skinny models everywhere and worrying about the effects on our daughters - yet many of us will be on a diet or trying to lose weight as we discuss this. It's not a paradox. I hope, as a feminist, that I can help my DD build a shield by educating her about these influences as she grows, so that she doesn't feel that her self-worth should be based on her appearance and her attractiveness to men, but I'm not going to think less of her for wearing makeup or a short skirt, and no feminist I know would either.

Oh and dittany summed me up perfectly earlier about why I chose those examples in my original post. Thanks dittany.

According to AnnieLobeseder, on that thread, wanting to be called Mrs means we want to be defined dominantly by our marital status, and it is patronising to be called by a title that attaches us to a man, as if we are not really worthwhile until we are married.

Another poster said "I leave my personality and views to speak for who/what I am, not my title" - clearly implying to me that those of us who do have a preference for Mrs/Miss don't have the personality or views to speak for what we are.

Later on fivecandles says clearly that we are all Ms, so why should anyone be offended by not being called Mrs/Miss.

JoanofArgos feels that no-one should be offended by being called Ms, even though she is offended if she isn't called Ms - so her feelings are more valid/important than the feelings of the many people on the thread who choose to be called Mrs and don't want to be called Ms under any circumstances.

Then AnnieLobeseder says:

"And Mrs tells me a woman has limited self-respect, and puts value on herself as a wife rather than a person in her own right. Or she's just never looked deeply enough into how society undermines women and blindly followed the social norm. I don't think I can accept that any women who truly believes in her own worth as a human being, and has given the matter serious thought would call herself Mrs, no matter that some of you say otherwise."

Tell me that is reasonable, polite or respectful!!

Bluecandles reckons that the thread is like some Stepford wives time machine - which pretty clearly refers to those on the thread who want to be called Mrs - we must be brainwashed to have made such a choice.

HeavyHeidi blames the fact that some women still insist on being called Mrs for the fact that she gets asked whether she is Mrs or Miss - this offends her and she feels that if we really cared about other people's feelings, we would all agree to be called Ms - ie, because she doesn't like Mrs/Miss, I should accept a title I don't like, for the sake of her feelings, whilst my feelings are worth nothing.

On the pubic hair thread, mention is made of women who shave wanting to look like little girls, and how disgusting this is. Not a nice insinuation, imo.

But to call yourself Mrs is placing value on your marital status isn't it? AL wasn't being disrespectful, I could say 'women who want to live with men must be absolutely mad or very brave, given the likelihood of some sort of violence' but that would just be my (true) opinion. Not an edict handed down from some feminist authority that says women shouldn't let men live in the same house as them.

Shaving your minge is mad though. Do people actually shave, not wax?

Mitchiest - wouldn't know. There's a reason I go swimming in shorts.

I do get mine waxed, (not entire minge, just normal bikini line) but am not under any illusions that it's a completely free choice I spontaneously made for myself any more than taming my eyebrows or getting anxious about my podge or any other aspect of my appearance.