TO POINT OUT...PANORAMA (TUES) Worse ever secret filming of abuse of vulnerable people.

[ScousyFogarty]

This was the most tragic ever "secret filming" by Panorama of abuse on vulnerable patients in care home. (arrests now made of some staff)

Did any of you manage to sit through the programme? It was an ordeal just to watch

Terrible terrible abuse , congratulations to Panorama for shining a light on the incredible events. It brings home to me that every time we entrust the care of our family members with learning disabilities we still have to have a high index of suspicion and not take things at face value. What is going on behind locked doors? If a parent lives too far away every person with a learning disability in a residential setting should have a local advocate who can drop in and check on them at any time day or night. I hope some jail sentences are imposed. Also there should be sanctions on staff who witness abuse and do not report it and what about when the report of abuse is ingnored? An apology just does not cut it with me. If abuse is proven in residential/ hospital settings can not a law be made so that a massive fine is put on the provider? Hit them in their pockets that will make them take more interest in what is happening in their facilitues. People should not be able to turn a blind eye. All residential homes/secure units need to have much more community involvement and not be left just to private companies to run them as they wish I know there is the Care Quality Commission inspections but there must be a different kind of input which does not focus on ticking boxes and having the right paperwork. Could they by law have to have a board of governors like a school with greater ongoing input in running and scrutiny from parents, other professionals and the residents?

Unfortunately it doesn't surprise me. I am involved in a charity for people who are struggling for all kinds of reasons. I have been shocked when some people who use our services have told me that they are working as a care worker. One in particular could be a real bully and we actaully have in place an informal situation where he is never left out of close staff supervision so that he can't bully other users.

I actually feel for CSCI (now CQC) because they're damned if they do and damned if they don't. Sometimes they shut care homes and are accused of being heavy handed and other times they're told they are not doing enough.

My view: if in doubt, investigate and shut it down.

zebra- there are advocate services but people in residentail settings are often to scared to use them. The problem is that enough people have to care enough, which is difficult to leglislate for especially when we have a government that doesn't care.

Abusers are clever so it isn't always easy to have something definate to report. There are different types of inspections but they give the home chance to improve rather than impose financial sanctions and they do not investigate why things have happened the way that they have as in the case of CP.

The manager or nurse in charge 'carries the can' for what happens internally. There is a reluctance to remove licences from homes. Small providers are being priced out of the market. I think that we need to go back to L A run homes but that certainly will not happen under a tory government.

Littleonemum - i would like L A run homes and thorough case reviews, there are 'units' within homes that should be closed and the home could run without them, they could use them for barrier nurse situation, so there is no excuse not to close them. These are usually used for dementia patients who are extremely vunerable and i have seen illegal practices in them.

I've worked in care homes. The trouble is people are often working unsupervised - in residents' rooms and bathrooms and residents are too frightened to complain. As another staff member you can only report abuse if you see it and even then it can be their word against yours. Often it can take three sightings, hence 3 warnings for that person to be dismissed. If you've reported the first one, you find yourself subject to verbal abuse and a lack of cooperation from the other staff in the meantime. I speak from experience. I haven't seen anything as bad as that shown last night though. It's sickening.

I have recently had relatives in hospital and have had to extensively argue to have things changed to go in line with the regulations, it has only been because i know what i am talking about that the ward manager has finally taken notice otherwise things would have just carried on, ignored.

If an employee is injured or dies doing an unsafe practice the company can be heavily fined under health and safety legislation. Why cant we have something similar if a vulnerable adult is abused when under the care of the company/provider? The comment about over the fence observations is important. We need to have small residential facilities in the community not out on a limb hidden away on industrial estates or country settings. We can all then watch over the fence, hear the screams, note odd events , see how often the residents are taken out etc.. etc.. and on a positive note be invited to celebrations as we would do for neighbours. The registered managers should face a disciplinary procedure like a fitness to practice investigation for doctors and should face the sanction of being struck off. I would make it madatory for an advocate to be appointed and that advocate call in unannounced 4 times a year and insist on seeing the vulnerable adult and being alone in a room with them. If told that it was unsafe then they should return with the clients social worker unannounced and talk then.

£3000 of public money a week for that level of care it makes me sick. The care workers are making a living ( but probably low wages), the suppliers who supply the institition are making a living, the professionals and managers are making a living , presumably the directors/shareholders are getting some financial reward and at the bottom of the pile are people being abused and tortured. How does it come to this? that the most vulnerable in society can be subjected to this?? We need care workers who can challenge wrong doing and who will not be afraid to highlight bad practice. They would not let their own child be abused like that- they have to take responsibility for not doing anything even if they fear the bullies turning on them.

zebra - the abuse is not that easy to spot and often to well hidden. People are scared into silence and four times a year is not enough to build a trusting relationship with a vunerable person, also not everyone has regular contact weith a SW, it is turned over to a key worker within the organisation.

Care workers do regulary 'whistle blow' no one takes any notice. I was forced out of a job by being given shifts that i could not work because of the complaints that i was making. I am not deliberatly picking holes but it is not as simple as you are suggesting, a complete overhaul is needed, but we don't have a government that will do it. You will notice the lack of headlines that there is when CP breaks down, the Fiona Pilkington case has not had the media attention that it deserves. Vunerable adult social care is not viewed as important.

We had a visiting district nurse make a complaint about the treatment she had witnessed, nothing was done. The really bad care homes are located in the community.

Absolutely bloody disgraceful. Missed the programme but watched on iplayer.
I cannot believe that level of violence and abuse was allowed to happen by so many individuals over such a protracted period of time. Felt physically sick watching some of the secret footage.

If there is one thing I cannot abide, it's bullying of the less capable. Those people (and I use the term loosely) deserve everything that comes to them. Vile behaviour perpetrated in an environment which could have been purpose-designed to encourage it and develop a culture for them to carry it out. I'm sure it's true that this is not an isolated case. Very sad.

Although NHS care can leave something to be desired, I tend to agree that privatised care with a profit motive, employing underqualified and undertrained staff is not the way to go.

Simon & Simone are, in their behaviour and understanding, just like young children - how could anyone treat them so badly?

I can't understand how people can treat others like that but I know they do... but what shocked me most is that it was a culture of abuse rather than isolated incidents, and for me, that was the most frightening aspect. I'm sure its just the tip of the ice berg, which is horrific.

I do hope though that people remember that there are many people in the caring profession who do outstanding work.

I am probably niave in my honest shock that this is so widespread, and so disappointed that even if someone does complain, very little is done. I am glad the BBC (and other channels) still comission programmes of this nature, as the government (present or past) seems unable to do anything about this awful state of affairs and certainly doesn't give it the attention it requires.

Birds, OK for every suggestion we can say its not that easy in practice. What would have made the difference in your situation? How can whistle blowing be made more effective? What sort of overhaul would have a chance of stopping this? I feel strongly that something concrete must be done NOW. This programme must be a catalyst for some lasting good to come out of it. If anything happened to me my beautiful boy could be at the mercy of so called "carers" in the future. He is at the limit of being cared for in the home environment and it is likely that his future will be a nursing home. He needs 1:1 care 24/7 and I dread a tired, overworked , intolerant , poorly paid untrained individual who may see him as less than human having any control over him. It is almost unbearable to think of his future if the system is not improved. Unfortunately this is not a one off, it is not so long ago that Cornwall had a similar scandal- so what does it take to stop it happening?

Can someone explain to me the 'privately owned, tax-payer funded' part? I'm not fully sure I understand that. Is it where the NHS/LA pay for a place at a private hospital?
Are their regulations/requirements less strict than say a publicly owned one?

This story led the news at dinner time. and will be covered in a lot of newspapers tomorrow....I hope the tragedy changes things for vulnerable people

Laws and procedures take time to implement, if they try to rush something through it will, once again just appear to make things better, 'in theory' but not in practice. We are all in danger of these practices, i have seen it and heared of it being widespread across care for the elderly.

We need tighter controls on what is acceptable and the real removal of licence if not adhered to. We need independant bodies possibly staffed by ex SW's or similar that are members of a registered body to handle concerns. It should be compulsory to know the law and regulations and be personally accountable for breaking them. A higher number of staff is usually needed and also better work contracts, so that good staff cannot be so easily forced out. There needs to be investment in social care (that willnot happen). At present alot of SW roles are being taken over by others, this will decrease the quality of care, the more people involved in a persons care, the better.

The procedures in place are often ignored and unless you are a strong person it is usually you against up to four other members of staff on that shift.

Geek - the owner of the home charges a price for the care, the L A pay it when there is a clinical need for the care (most cases). This comes out of the 'benefit' bill. When homes where run by the council, the cost came from the NHS so there was an incentive to pay for private care as the funding criteria is set differently.

During the Thatcher years the LA went from being the provider to being the purchaser of care. When it was said that council homes couldn't be afforded it was because the budget was set to low. The cost of private care is double.

It is easier to inspect and govern L A run services. They have greater duties under the law.

i feel physically sickened by it but im sure there are even far worse places (if possible) im like some of the previous posters so afraid for my DH and DS my DS especially as he cant tell people if bad things are happening what happens when i die im 50 hes only 11 atm who where what will become of him DH will be able to shout scream abuse but DS wont it makes me want to die inside god help them

Prices for a residential bed start at around £400 a week. It rises when the bed is considered a nursing bed.

The manager of a home is licenced for so many nursing and residential beds. There are other categories, also. The manager is the person who assess the patient in hospital, unless it is an obvious nursing care case. I have known a manager to put a patient under 'residential' when they should have been 'nursing' because they do not have the beds but want the money. They know that they will lose at least two residents in what is known as 'chest infection season'; November to March, so can transfer the resident over then.

By law different cats of patient have different staff ratio. This only works when it is adhered to, otherwise the staff are under pressure. Having said that i have seen bad care through laziness, not staffing ratio.

It is sometimes cheaper to buy in 24 hour care rather than residental but it is more difficult to organise and oversee effectively, so people are put into homes.

Having said that i ( and friends/family) have worked in some very good homes with very happy resisdents.

my sister is autisitc and is over 18
the state have been hassling my mum for years and programmes like last night were just horrific thinking that may lie in store.

i used to work in an administrative capacity at an NHS LD institution and it later turned out there was a lot of abuse towards the 'rsidents'.Deliberately knocking the end of syringe needles so that injections hurt a lot more for example, unnecessarily rough man-handling , winding them up and so on

I ran a care company for two years and gave up completely disillusioned with the system. I remember being requested to go to a lovely old ladies' home where her caring daughters waited to interview me. They asked me what I would do if they rang me and had evidence one of my carers had stolen from their mother. I said I would immediately put the worker on gardening leave to protect all parties and begin an investigation.

They told me I was the only one out of five companies who said I would do this. They told me the previous carer, who their mum loved and trusted, had been systematically stealing off her for two years. The old lady cried and said that if only she had asked, she would have willingly given her the money. This "lady" left the agency she was with and doubtless now works for another.

It is so hard to take action against workers like these; I was often overuled at director level as it was easier to try and get rid of the worker and sometimes the director did not even do this. You are often short of staff because of the low paid work that a culture develops where the staff begin to dictate the business and this is of course fatal for those who are supposed to being cared for.

I left in disgust, stressed out, depressed and unwilling to ever work in this field again.