Measles Outbreak?

[MoaningLisa]

I am sure you have all heard on the news that there has been an outbreak of measles.

Papers, Schools, Hv, Drs are saying if you or your child haven't had the vaccine(s) now would be a good time to get it done.

I cant help but think though that the parents who haven't and wont get their child vaccinated are putting their children at risk.

Aibu to think that its just bloody selfish and very daring to play with their own childs life?

I just want to point out a couple of things:

1. my dd1 was did not regress into autism post mmr. I know that Gooseberry did not specifically say she did - but just for overall clarity.

2. curlygirly: re: your statement "vaccine damage happens. that is what the compensation scheme is for, cold comfort but there it is" - I have rarely read anything so callous (and I have been on many a vax thread!) Money can never compensate for what dd1 has been thorugh, and continues to go through. If it were all about money - then I am sure you would be happy to accept a large sum of money and have one of your children left a shell of who they were formerly - with little hope of an independent life; unable to understand much of the world; not have the same chances, opportunities, freedom - hell, not have the same life as their siblings. After all, you'd have some money - so where's the worry?

apart form that, I find it worrying that an infectious diseases expert is not clear on the complication arising form an infectious disease - but only the non-vaxxers seem bothered by this.

the Finnish study mentioned? I am still alittle fuzzy headed, so may be misrding things. The oft-touted Finnish study did not follow 14 million people - it ran for 14 years, and followed 1.8 million people - a surprising fact to get wrong, tbh, and does make me wonder whether the whole paper was read, or just some attention-grabbing headlines.

one of the authors is also on ecord as saying the study was not designed to look at/pick up on autism (the study ran from 1982 to 1996 - and ended before there was any talk of autism/mmr a la Wakefield). they also did not follow the whole 1.8 million participants for the 14 years, only 200 or so.

I could go on, but frankly, i doubt anyone will read it anyway. suffice to say, the flaws were shocking, and yet again it is am example of a study which looked at one thing being used to deny another thing entirely - which often happens, of course (no doubt yet again there will be cries of "you only pick apart the studies you don't like" - and yet again my answr will be - go ahead and fill your boots - pick apart the studies that I, Gooseberry, bubbley, link to - or ones linked by Beachcomber on the other thread, and others - go ahead, make some critical evaluation of them. still waiting for any to come forth, though)

So much of what the pro-vaxxers say is "I believe" "I'll take my chances" "I'll put my trust in .."

What are you afraid of? Finding out something you'd rather not know? Far better to be informed, I think.

Yes sorry silver I should have made it more clear that this didn't apply to you, sorry if it wasn't clear enough.

My point was that it's hypocrtical to come over all sympathetic and "yes I believe" you with one mum you're talking to, and dismiss all the others as liars or mistaken.

gooseberry - no need to apologise! your post was perfectly clear to me . I just did not want anyone to be able to pick up and run with a point that was not ever made, iyswim? I have lways been upfront about the fact that dd1 is not an "mmr case", and you just never know when people will take it into their heads ot dredge up stuff form other threads.

I didn't want your point lost to petty point-scoring, I suppose

"I find it worrying that an infectious diseases expert is not clear on the complication arising form an infectious disease" yep, very worrying but 'pro-vaxxers' didn't seem to pick up on it at all. Even when he backtracked. Probably because he was saying what he wanted to hear.

Marian, so sorry to hear about your DD and your DS. I hope your DD gets better soon. Are singles a possibility for your DS?

What they* wanted to hear

Well I am delighted for you and your friends, of course, Cote. In my own small circle of acquaintances, however, I can list:

two children deaf for life from meningitis brought on - I think - by measles
a child dead from measles
my own sister swollen up so badly from measles she was unable to urinate. The Doctor visited every day - the 1960s equivalent of being in hospital.
a child who survived chicken pox literally only just - had to be resuscitated and spent about a month on ITU
an adult in intensive care due to chicken pox
a child born profoundly disabled due to mother contracting Rubella in pregnancy who lived but a few days

I know similar stories ,which is why it annoys me when people say 'my DC had a mild fever and a few spots' as if 'you weren't careful enough with your DC'.
You also think that those who have spent a lifetime eradicating smallpox from the world could sit down and weep to be told that 'it isn't very contagious so you could easily avoid it'.(I am still reeling from that information!)

"that is what the compensation scheme is for"

except there isn't one, is there, for children damaged by MMR?

just denial, and threats to have one's home taken away

exotic - would you like to have a suffering competition?

would you like to read about the suffering of children and their families after vaccines?

would you?

still no comment on the actual science, exotic?

are we just going to ignore that elephant in the room forever?

the study that squidgy and her husband quoted as a definitive "no mmr/autism" link - it didn't even examine that link! so why rely on it for that conclusion?

What about the fact that the uptake of the smallpox vaccine fell to below 50% and continued to fall from early in the 20th century? Despite that, the number of cases continued to decrease. Australia and New Zealand had low vaccination rates and it disappereaed there as well. Can you still continue to attribute it all to the vaccine if that was the case? According to your arguments throughout this thread it is the vaccines that have resulted in the decrease in the incidence of disease and if the vaccination rate drops then the diseases will come back. Well that didn't happen with smallpox so clearly the reduction in cases and the eradication of the disease can not be completely attributed to the vaccine. Other factors must have played an important role to prevent cases increasing again.

Silverfrog, you have misquoted me, and show my (sympathetic) comment to your situation. I said that must be cold comfort. YOU added the 'but there it is'.

There is a small risk of adverse reaction to ANY medicine. I ask again -do we stop the majority benefitting from a life saving medicine like vaccine, antibiotics or any other?

For anyone still wavering over whether Mmr is safe please ask yourself why the vast majority of medical professionals believe it is safe. Presumably doctors know about this amazing cochrane report too?? Are you seriously suggesting that gps and nurses daily inject babies with something they suspect is harmful, but because of a gov- pharmaceuticals conspiracy they say nothing?

Or is it that the health professionals are too stupid or lazy to see the truth- only a few (very vehement) posters and a very few scientists are clever enough to see the light?

The vast majority of the medical profession believes Mmr is safe- with a small chance of any adverse reaction being far outweighed by the benefits - to the individual as well as society.

Silverfrog, I give you leave to misquote me all you like now - I suppose you have no other line of argument to follow do you? I really can't spend another whole day on and off this thread!

This is my final (probably) word on the subject. You telling parents not to immunise after your daughters adverse reaction to the jab is like ME telling people not to use penicillin after MY adverse reaction to it. But I wouldn't do that. Penicillin is a life saver - so is vaccination.

Listen to the doctors, the WHO and the HPA not the small number of very vocal people on mn.

Bubbly: Curly would rather you just accept what squidgy's husband says and just ignore its faults. (He does have an awfully nice white coat you know.)

Curly - your sympathy is worthless and hypocritical.

I apologise, curly for the "but there it is". that does not inany way change the rest of my paragraph addressed to you - which I note you failed ot address.

I would also refer you to an earlier post I made, and ask you to find an example of where I have told a parent NOT to vaccinate. I have not, and do not. I advise caution. that is all.

Why do you think people want to "stop life-saving medicine"?

AW asked for more research and advised single vaccines while it was carried out. Which part of that is "stopping life saving medicine?"

oh but gooseberry - surely if you say you have not vaccinated your child (whether in part or all) - this means that you want the entire vaccination schedule halted immediately - no ifs, no buts!

advising caution, and asking for more (properly carried out, properly designed) research is just scaremongering!

Only 95% keeps getting bandied about as a failure! You would never get 100%, I think that 98% is the best you could ever hope for- so 95% is fantastic (even 75% is pretty good).
My DS2 is allergic to penicillin -it still makes it a wonderful medicine for mankind-it just means he can't take it.
I really can't be bothered to even comment on smallpox again-just be thankful that it was taken seriously by other people to protect you.

(He does have an awfully nice white coat you know.)

At least he treats people as intelligent and doesn't patronise.

Ridiculous straw man arguments. You make a point, you give information and they completely ignore it and screech that you want children to die, don't you, admit it etc etc

I really hope people reading don't buy into this sort of hysteria.

So it doesn't matter if he's wrong?

You should read back some of the pro vaxxers posts. Patronising? why yes, and abusive and insulting.

I shouldn't imagine that bothers you though.

Eh? Who is bandying it about as failure? 95% is the figure the WHO have given to ensure herd immunity and prevent the spread of the disease. We don't have it in the UK and even countries that have above 95% are still getting outbreaks. You really seem to know very little about the concepts you are promoting on this thread. Were you even aware that the concept of herd immunity came from natural immunity to a disease? When you say things like 'mild measles only benefits the person who has it and no one else' it certainly doesn't seem like you to!

Nice sidestep on the smallpox question btw. I don't think it's a particularly difficult question to answer. If the vaccine rate is low and the disease is still eradicated can you really attribute it all to the vaccine? Given your other posts on the thread saying how important vaccine uptake is to ensure prevention of the disease I'm not really sure you can but go ahead and have a go anyway.

Curly -- Why do you think people want to "stop life-saving medicine"?

AW asked for more research and advised single vaccines while it was carried out. Which part of that is "stopping life saving medicine?"