Saw this headline, thought "It's GOT to be a Mumsnetter!"

[bupcakesandcunting]

Yeah, yeah, it's a Daily Mail article but still [[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1389593/Are-PC-parents-world-The-couple-raising-genderless-baby--protect-right-choice.html BWAH HA HA HA HA HA HA!"

They're coco loco, right? Surely no-one can say "fuck off, there's a dear" to THIS one?!

Transgender/transsexualism has nothing to do with biology, it's a delusion that exists firmly in people's heads.

You stated this as an absolute, dittany. I'm asking if you have anything to back it up.

Toby, if it isn't "all in their heads" then why do they need to see shrinks for years and years?

To be sure they're aware of/monitored for any psychological upsets relating to the process. To ensure that, having dealt with the bullying, bigotry and rudeness of the general public for as long as they have already, they are equipped to deal with a whole lot more for the rest of their lives.

Can I remind people that trans people are not just MTF but also FTM.

Also I've said it before, and no doubt I'll say it again. The parents are not denying the child a sex. They are denying the world the right to put a label on how the child acts. Society has built this perception of gender up to such a height that it has become the single most important thing to us. We would be horrified if someone claimed that skin colour or race meant that we should do certain jobs and behave in certain ways. Why do we think it's okay to do it by gender?

Instead of assigning a list of characteristics to men, and a list to women and claiming there is no crossover, how about we posit the new and exciting idea (!) that we're all people. And that shock!horror! some girls possess qualities that we think of masculine and vice versa.

What people forget, is that if we lived in a world where gender didn't matter, when it came to what you played with, what job you had, how you were treated by people around you, EVERYONE would be happier. They really would. Because gender roles don't just harm girls, they harm boys as well, and they can damage children in ways we don't even know about.

I firmly think that in a centuries time, our descendents will look back at us, and be horrified by our society. There'll probably be students saying 'so if I was born with a vagina in the 21st century, it would affect every single thing about my life, including how I was treated, how I was expected to behave, and my gender identity. How absolutely awful.' And another one saying 'the fact I was born with a penis, would've meant that I too was forced into behaving in a certain way, and if I stepped out of line would be subjected to ridicule and insults against my supposed masculinity.'

Also the transphobia on this thread reeks. Let me guess LadyoftheManor, bisexual people don't exist either, they're just greedy.

I did an applied psychology degree. This was done by psychologists in the 70's. They found it made no difference, and kids raised by parents who thought sex/gender was a social phenomenon ended up very, very screwed up.

Tambern, guess away, but that isn't what is being discussed therefore you don't have my opinion on it.

Tambern, please, explain by what you mean by your use of "masculine traits". It has been banded about a bit on this thread, and no one has explained what it is they mean...

BTW I mentioned the JLC adopted her children because I was concerned at Dittany's comments to Annie:

I don't think anybody said that genetic disorders don't exist Annie. (although the thought of an actual scientist claiming that someone who has given birth is intersex is a bit hairraising).

and

I didn't dismiss you Annie, I dismissed the piece of science you were taught that claimed that JLC who has had two children has an intersex condition.

It's wrong to call Annie's qualifications into question on the basis of a mistake.

FFS, dittany! I'm not the one making outrageous and unbacked-up claims.

But ok, if you can't prove that transsexualism/transgenderism is "a delusion that exists firmly in peoples' heads", I will mentally add a "in my opinion" to your statement. As I often do.

LadyoftheManor said Tambern, please, explain by what you mean by your use of "masculine traits". It has been banded about a bit on this thread, and no one has explained what it is they mean...

Certainly. Masculine traits are those attributes which are commonly associated with men, and thought of as being integrally male.
For example: people think that strength, courage etc are 'masculine' and compassion, empathy etc are 'feminine'

You will note my very very careful usage of it. I always say 'thought of, or supposed to be, in front of it. This is because, as my answer above demonstrates, I don't believe there are certain qualities that belong to either sex.

"Instead of assigning a list of characteristics to men, and a list to women and claiming there is no crossover, how about we posit the new and exciting idea (!) that we're all people. And that shock!horror! some girls possess qualities that we think of masculine and vice versa. "

Is what you actually said. You said "we think of..." when you are implying a stereotype carefully dodged by a lot of people. You also imply that it is shocking(!) that women possess stereotypically masculine qualities (which you have kindly indicated are strength and courage). Does it shock(!) you, or are you implying that people are shocked (!) when women portray traits such as courage? It's just you used the term "we" and I'm not sure who that was up to and including.

(!) is used to mean sarcasm not shock. It's not a new or an exciting idea. It's one that's been talked about a lot before.

Therefore I'm not shocked about women having masculine qualities, I'm making fun of those who are shocked. Sorry, a lot of people don't use the same emoticons I know.

And I'm fully aware that a lot of people buck against the trend. I would ask you though to look at nearly every single tv show on the box, and try telling me that masculine and feminine qualities are not fairly rigorously adhered to. Therefore quite clearly I was saying that masculine qualities are not masculine at all, but that they are perceived as such by general society.

toronto has a huge mothering/ academic activism community - i'm dying to know if the mother is part of it.

i think it's fascinating, like all the other instances of children being raised gender-free. you don't tend to get follow-ups though, which makes it very difficult not to read the articles as a 'look at these freaks' one off. i'd love to see updates (like that tv series with wotsisname and the millenium children) and find out more.

it's a shame that parents have to specifically opt for secrecy to protect the child from gendered influence, rather than just attempting to raise in a gender-free environment.

i also don't like the tone of the article - way too much insistence on the 'other' (this boy likes purple! and dresses!) - most small boys like to dress up in frocks and feather boas. it just gets beaten out of them at/ by school (either physically or psychologically). i also don't like the way the fail insists that their 'friends' are bad-mouthing them.

hopefully they have some real friends who aren't slagging them off to the papers behind their backs as well.

Exotic- Is it amusing that boys/men partake in ballet dancing? Is that the point of the story, that your son thinks it's funny to tell people he once went to dancing lessons?

The point of the story was that they were 3 yrs old and the only 2 boys in the entire dance school. I don't think it is amusing-lots of boys want to become ballet dancers -Billy Elliot example- and how can ballet cope without them? If you knew my DS you would know why he laughs! Even if he wanted to be a serious ballet dancer they wouldn't have him!
The point of my story is that I took him-could have seriously tried-BUT it wouldn't have worked-he didn't want to.
It isn't the norm for little boys to go to ballet-you can try and socially condition them, but only a few will go on -if they have a genuine wish, not because the parent has decided they will try not to assign gender roles.
People may not like gender stereotyping ,but your DC needs to get on with their peer group and fit in, you are not helping them to say 'you are doing it differently'. A DC, more than anything, needs friendship-family is not enough after the age of about 8yrs.

What they are doing is not right, eventually the child will find out their sex when they are older, they will not be able to keep it in a bubble. It's better what Brad and Angie are doing, letting Shiloh decide what she wears whether it's boys or girls clothes. That's what my parents did to me, and in most of my primary school photos, I looked like a boy with short spiky hair and boy clothes

Tbh their child looks like a boy, has a boyish look to hin

Transgender is a mental delusion? Right. Sorry dittany, but to me that sounds like someone faced with a huge heap of dinosaur bones who insists that creationism happened. I don't dare ask your opinion on homosexuality.

The parents are doing the child no favours at all, making him stand out from his peers. Are they going to keep him cocooned at home incase any childcare providers or school find out what sex the child is . Not fair on the child. Children are not stupid, eventually he/she will find out what sex he/she is. surely the better way is to support the child whatever clothes/toys they wish to play with or wear.

suncottage I'm 6'6" in some of my pairs of heels. And I'm definitely female however you define it - breasts, vagina, ovaries, XX chromosomes, the lot. I've had some comments before now but I think they were joking: how brilliant if there's some people wandering around thinking I'm MTF!

With regards to the parents, I think it's great. More power to them. I love the idea upthread that children should just be 'children' rather than 'girls' or 'boys'. In fact, imagine a world with no gendered pronouns at all. Wouldn't change biological realities of course, but think how liberating it could be...

exotic - my ds dances. he's danced for 6 years (started at 3, like yours) and was hounded out of ballet (which he adored) by a score of bullying little girls who kept telling him at school that ballet was for girls and he shouldn't be going, because it was for girls. and he was a boy. not a girl. so he shouldn't be allowed. as he wasn't a girl i would use bitchy rather than bullying, but recognise it as enormously gendered.

there's such a huge deal of ridiculousness about dance that i'm taking a bit of umbrage tbh. whether or not it was funny that your ds went to dance because he was

I have read this thread and chopped and changed my view every couple of posts. I certainly don't think these parents are weirdos or freaks, I think they have good intentions, I'm not sure they are going about it in the right way. It's all very well subverting society but these children have to live in it and don't have a choice at the moment. Setting them up for ridicule and bullying, or removing them from society is unfair.

I'm finding the discussions on sex/gender interesting and wish I knew more to be able to join in.

'I think it's misogynistic and bigoted against women to claim that men can be women. It's complete erasure of our reality Toby.'

This is interesting Dittany, if a man makes a convincing woman aren't they likely to experience our reality, at least the societal side of it.