Saw this headline, thought "It's GOT to be a Mumsnetter!"

[bupcakesandcunting]

Yeah, yeah, it's a Daily Mail article but still [[http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1389593/Are-PC-parents-world-The-couple-raising-genderless-baby--protect-right-choice.html BWAH HA HA HA HA HA HA!"

They're coco loco, right? Surely no-one can say "fuck off, there's a dear" to THIS one?!

"However we don't live in that society. We live in one where trans folks are derided as in your posts, when all they are trying to do is reconcile their minds with a body that doesn't match what they feel. I have several trans friends and the implications of your posts would hurt them, but not surprise them. It's assumptions like that, that they live with every day, and it's ridicule that they've had to learn to accept. It doesn't stop them from trying their best, and maybe it's time you thought along the lines of 'they're human. For whatever reason they want to be a different sex. Rather than making their lives harder than they already are, I'll just live with the idea that someone is different from me... and it doesn't make them wrong.'"

Thank you for saying what I was trying to say but failing miserably.

LOTM, you are so strict, I would allow cs.

I am white. I will get a tan soon. Will that make me at least an Indian, if I feel so? Pleeeaase.

I think that little Storm would fit in fine-he just isn't being given a chance.

I've just seen one of my friends go through huge amounts of drug therapy and a massive operation to become a woman. I can't think you'd do that for any other reason than for some reason, you felt you'd been born as the wrong gender. I would never, ever have the audacity to challenge that - because I think to do that you must have an absolute belief that you should be the other gender. Why that's so important, I don't really understand but I absolutely respect the right of someone to feel that it is.

Well, I don't see what point you're making LOTM. Trans-sexual men don't usually want female genitalia. They are the ones who are happy wearing women's clothes and being called Brenda, usually in the privacy of their own home. I said usually. I know a guy who does it in public.

People with GD are the ones who have the feelings that they were born into the wrong body. They don't have the ovaries or the fallopian tubes, breasts or vagina but they feel, mentally, like they should have been a woman. Do you know how many of these people commit suicide or suffer from MH issues because they struggle so much with their thoughts and feelings? No, they will never be able to reproduce as women, trans women will never impregnate a woman. We know this so stop asking the question as if if you get the right answer the condition will cease to exist. Is it really such a big fucking ask to just refer to these people by the gender they feel they are? Is it harming anyone?

No one here (as I read) is suggesting saying to trans people that they are not what they want to be called.
It is not the same as agreeing with them surely.

bupcakesandcunting You're welcome :) love the name by the way!

And for everyone wailing about the fact that trans people can't reproduce in the way of their chosen gender, are you seriously suggesting that having eggs or sperm is the measure of a gender

Is a woman who has had a hysterectomy somehow less of a woman? Of course not. Because we're civilised enough not to assume people's bodies are for one function only

Well, we've had a trans poster on here and they've had to read the ignorant shite on this thread so that's as good as saying to them "you are NOT a man/woman/whichever gender it is you identify with)

My point is; if the word female means to reproduce, why would you refer to someone who isn't biologically set up to reproduce (whether they can or not is irrelevant it's the definition of the word).

If they "think" they are born into the wrong body, and mentally they think they are to be the opposite sex, why do they need to add breasts or remove breasts (replace word with penis and vagina) to create that? If it is my reproductive "plumbing" that makes me FEMALE how does cutting off my hair, removing my breasts and taking testosterone hormones change that?

I understand they they think they're in the wrong body, but replacing sexual organs for no purpose other than to look like the opposite sex is, to me, the same thing as a man putting on a dress and calling himself Brenda, his tackle still in place.

Isn't there enough unhappiness in the world without making anyone else unhappy...

If it's not hurting you then why would you be bothered.

Live and let live.

I don't know anyone who is GD or Trans sexual but i do know quite a few gay people and they still get crap even in this day and age.

fe·male/ˈfēmāl/
Adjective: Of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) that can be fertilized by male gametes.
Noun: A female person, animal, or plant.

Regardless to what one is born, the above defines female.

Grow breasts, have your penis removed, wear a dress...it's the above that defines FEMALE, not ones ability to choose.

If someone is mentally traumatized and say s/he is Napoleon, I see no harm addressing them Napoleon.

But i will not then come here to say I've met Napoleon today

Does the word female mean to reproduce?

What does that make females who can't?

It can also mean to produce eggs.

If you can't reproduce, you can still produce eggs, can you not? I don't know a lot about infertility. I presume infertile women have periods?

A woman is always a woman, if she's fertile or not, if she has breasts or not.

Same thing for men - no amount of med interventions can make him a woman. So we are saying the same.

LadyoftheManor let's imagine we're in the future. Genetic advances mean that with careful manipulation of the existing DNA structure, an adult male can produce eggs that are genetically his own. He can't bear children because he doesn't have the right bits and pieces- uterus etc. However he's not unlike women who choose to be egg donors but not actually have children. Technically he can produce eggs. Would that make him female in your mind? We're talking hypothetically of course.

Just reading the non-daily hate article and gender thing aside I think they are giving their young children way to much power and responsibilty. Jeepers, I get stressed over the decision to have my hair cut or not! A two year old shouldn't have to make that choice. Plus adults make informed choices. I don't see how their children are doing the same when they can't know or anticipate the consequences of their decisions as they have very little life experience.

That's what bothers me most about this article.

Yes so if a man (ie has a penis and testes) decides that he should've been born a woman, no amount of hormones or changing his name or what people refer to him as changes the fact that he is in fact MALE as he cannot produce eggs.

Adjective: Of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) that can be fertilized by male gametes.

If he can produce eggs (without medical intervention every time he wanted to try and get pregnant, he'd have to have a system fitted that allowed monthly periods or egg distribution), that can be fertilised by sperm, and produce offspring (this would be tricky) then according to the definition of FEMALE he would qualify.

Ok, what's bothering me more about that article is the parents' smugness, talking about 'loving a child for who they are' and having 'two adults who love them unconditionally'. As if those of us who allow our children to publically be the sex they are are somehow not quite as loving.

I appreciate you all have moved on in the discussion, but I'm not sure what to add about that.

No, steady on. We're talking simply that his body through being modified can produce eggs (that can then be removed as they can be from a woman, and fertilised in a lab.) We agree that he'd be female though right? Since he can produce eggs.

Bumperlicioso- agree. And I think the message for their children is - your biological sex is wrong.
You don't need to conform to stereotypes, but why deny nature???

Tambern - that's too hypothetical. Could ge be marsian as well? Cause he was born there..

Yes, he'd need ovaries to produce eggs. However, to REPRODUCE he could have his eggs removed and done in a lab like an infertile woman. He'd need fallopian tubes in order to have periods.

If you are creating a Frankenstein, please don't start taking notes...I'm a novelist doing a phd in something that resembles NOTHING to science.

Yeah but we agreed that periods aren't the measure of a woman, or people on certain forms of contraception aren't female. Just the ability to produce eggs that could be used in a lab. Technically reproduced.

And niceday... it's supposed to be hypothetical, it's how we find boundaries and limits to our conceptions of ideas.