Does anybody actually know anyone who had an ELCS just because they thought they were "too posh to push"?

[InAStateOfReflux]

Just watching the Wright stuff. One of the hot topics is that apparently ELCS rates being performed by the NHS are rising because people are deciding they are "too posh to push" and it's costing the NHS lots of money.

They are suggesting that these women should be offered psychiatric counselling to bring them round to the idea of having a vaginal birth.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but I was given an ELCS because my dd was breech and was in fact strongly advised to (not given much choice in fact) and anyone else I know who's had one has been offered it because of significant trauma or complications in a previous birth.

I have never however met a woman who insisted on one on the NHS just cause she didn't fancy pushing it out of her fanny, and I doubt the NHS would go with this anyway tbh...

And if they're talking about women who have real fears and emotional distress regarding child-birth, then yes of course lets force the hysterical wench to push it out, does she not know how much money she's costing the NHS?

Oh how I love the way the media portray these issues...[sigh] Yes perhaps ELCS rates are rising and perhaps this should be addressed in some way, but to suggest it is for such fickle reasons is so juvenile. Perhaps it is the HCPs fault and not the whole female population who are apparently too cowardly to push their babies out?

I think sayitasitis, has unwittingly hit on the nub of the issue.

People who belive in the concept of being "too posh to push" think it's all about fear of pain.

It's not, it's really not. I've been involved with the birth trauma association and while, yes, pain is a factor in women's traumatic birth stories it's NOT the overriding fear.

I think the VAST majority of women who are traumatised and too frightened to attempt to risk a natural birth are terrified of losing their babies.

The pain thing is secondary and a way to bully and belittle women - stupid, useless women who can't handle the pain of childbirth. They should just toughen up and get on with. Very mysoginistic and blinkered approach.

I'm surprised anyone would think it's as simple as "not wanting to go through pain" when a traumatic birth has so many distressing factors.

I guess if you are very narrow minded though, it's easier just to call it a fear of pain.

"I think the phrase, too posh to push, is aimed at those too scared to go through the pain of childborth. Only its a stupid phrase. These individuals aren't 'too posh', they are actually uneducated, lacking knowledge of what the human body is capable of. They should all be given a copy of Ina May's book on childbirth."

bollocks, I read Ina May, did Marie Mongans hypnobirthing and had a fairly easy labour up to my EMCS for DS, for DD I just couldn't be bothered to go thru it all again when there was an easier option with less likelihood of ending up with a torn fanjo.

Agree about the pain thing. I'm not remotely worried about the pain (although I know that I probably should be). I'm worried about risking my baby's life. I'm also worried about the effect the birth trauma will have on my mental health and therefore my ability to care for my family. And of having to have a GA for an emergency section. If I could safely be made to endure the pain of childbirth in exchange for the safer (although still painful and risky) option of a repeat c-section, I would leap at the chance.

The bullying I'm receiving from the hospital about VBAC is making me associate vaginal birth even more with violation, risk and loss of control.

I am perfectly well educated and I am a HCP. I took plenty of deep breaths as I laboured for 4 days. Pushing did nothing because dd never got into the birth canal. At 10cm dilated her head was only just below my belly button. I can't see how positive thinking and faith would suddenly cure a pelvic malformation that has existed since I was in the womb myself I really don't. Perhaps all you posters who think I am stupid and lazy could explain it simply to me.

Many young women are not in a position to afford a baby until their 30's or even early 40's ,some are obese or diabetic or there is a genuine problem/ emergency.... even the useless NHS mostly want a healthy baby delivered and the mother alive and in a reasonable state to recover and look after her baby.Sometimes a mother may just be exhausted .....the vast majority of C sections will be for a real medical issue.The NHS rarely give any patients a choice .... most decisions are governed by medical reasons.Most private maternity hospitals do offer a C section......£5,000 or there abouts!!
The NHS is aware that would be parents will see a lawyer if the delivery is a complete mess.... negligence etc..... the annual cost of this runs into the millions.Most midwives call a doctor if they feel that things are going wrong!!
Less C sections....I do not think this is going to be on the cards!!

"your abdominal muscles are not "sliced through" during a CS. They are torn by hand"

No, actually, they are not sliced through nor are they torn by hand or otherwise.

Abdominal muscles are pulled to the sides as shown in this illustration.

How can you have had a CS and still be so ignorant???

'The only thing I would add is that the hormonal rush, so strong after the VBs was non-existent for me after the CS - the whole gazing at your baby in wonder and amazement just did not happen.'

I just had my second CS a couple of days ago and fell in love with my daughter in an instant, just like with my first daughter.I don't think it could be any more intense had I pushed her out of my fanjo. Certainly I don't feel like I've missed anything.

Cote, that picture is a vertical incision C Section! Very different anatomically from a bikini line c section and there is a natural divide in the abdominal muscles at that point (hence the brown line that many women get in later pregnancy as the muscles separate naturally).

FWIW I had a general anaesthetic for my CS and went from labour room to theatre and out for the count in less than 5 minutes, so not masses of time to research it.

PS: how can you so rude to people?

No.

Everyone I know with a cs has had it due to an EMCS, breech or previous birth problems / CS.

I know loads who elected for them after having a 1st c section.

In fact, I don't know anyone who had their 1st child by c section who didn't elect to have a c section for the 2nd with no medical reasons just that they'd had it first time round and fancied it 2nd time round (convenience of date, in their eyes avoiding potentially going through labour and then having a c section anyway).

Ah yes fox, but why did they have a CS first time round?

THat picture is weird.

The skin looks like it's cut vertically, but the uterus is cut horizontally. I just always assumed that a vertical incision meant both skin and uterus were cut vertically. Obivously not then, interesting,. thanks.

Too right I don't want to labour for days and then have a section anyway. I know for me there is a 99.99% chance I will need a section so I am not waiting until the point where my life and more importantly the life of my baby are in danger. I am sick of being made to feel like I should apologise and that I am not a proper mother.

Me! I was concerned about the size of baby, was v overdue, she wasn't engaging at all and didn't want to be induced as had heard a no. of horror stories from friends who had terrible induction followed by emercency C. Requested it, got one. It was an incredible experience for me.

2nd pregnancy requested one again as it was such a +ve experience but actually had to have one anyway due to placenta praevia. I also have a friend who had a section privately through choice and know doctors who have had elected c-sections. In fact, there is an interesting article on the % of obstetricians who book in for caesareans - will try and find link. I think it's a valid choice although I appreciate the financial concerns the nhs may have.

Dunno duchesse but I know they were advised they could have a vbac but they didn't want it. Another of our friends has just been sent to a special vbac advisor as she has asked for a c section for her 2nd and is adamant she is having one. Her first ended up as a c section as her labour dragged on too long, she became too exhausted, they started getting worried about the baby so decided to do a c section. She just wants to skip those horror couple of days of labour in case it happens again.

I, from a personal perspective, wouldn't judge a woman for her birth choices tbh or even be particularly interested if she wanted to choose a c section - her decision, her body! We all experience birth differently and have different fears etc. But I can see why doctors would want to look into something like this - after all, a c section is a major op.

My obstetrician told me that I had almost 0% chance of a VBAC due to my pelvis so she was recommending that I not be allowed to labour. The last time they didn't just become mildly concerned about dd her heart rate dropped below 50.

duchesse - After both a vertical and horizontal CS incision, abdominal muscles are separated (not torn) and pulled aside by clamps, as shown in that illustration.

<a class="break-all" href="http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=www.beltina.org/pics/cesarean_section.jpg&imgrefurl=www.beltina.org/health-dictionary/cesarean-section-procedure-complications.html&usg=__ZFM0B6uir5gHNvkHw0elme2WCmQ=&h=320&w=400&sz=19&hl=en&start=0&sig2=FjvJFDEx2SLJnzuQGql-vA&zoom=1&tbnid=COsvdbliDFSTqM:&tbnh=163&tbnw=204&ei=MhDhTevYNcnLsgbKlZT-BQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dcesarean%2Bsection%2Bincision%26hl%3Den%26biw%3D1058%26bih%3D827%26gbv%3D2%26tbm%3Disch&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=153&vpy=301&dur=5&hovh=201&hovw=251&tx=153&ty=104&page=1&ndsp=17&ved=1t:429,r:5,s:0&biw=1058&bih=827" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Here is another example, with a clearly horizontal incision and clamps on all sides.

Here is another diagram, with explanations.

I'm sorry you thought I was rude to ask how you can believe abdominal muscles are torn during CS after having had one yourself. This was my sincere thought. I'm not saying everyone needs to research what happened to them (although I would), but surely you must have realized that you were able to move quite painlessly in a few days (a week?) which is much too short for torn muscles to be reconstituted. I was expressing genuine surprise that someone who has actually lived through a CS thought her abdominal muscles were torn.

I do think Caeseran sections should be on a 'need' basis

Haughty - What is "need", though?

Would you say a pregnant woman contemplating stabbing herself in the abdomen rather than go through another VB "needs" a CS?

How about one who can't sleep from anxiety and can't stop crying as she sets foot within a maternity?

Who decides if one is a "need" and the other is a "want"?

Yes how do you define need? Did I not need one because my life wasn't worth saving (as XH said). Is so who decides?

Yes how do you define need? Did I not need one because my life wasn't worth saving (as XH said). Is so who decides?

Well if your life was in danger you obviously needed one, I think we all know what 'need' mean replies like yours are just trying to provoke an argument.