to charge friends going rate for childminding?

[whethergirl]

My neighbours are friends of mine and so is our ds, who go to the same school. Over the last few years I've helped them out with babysitting as they both work. I've been happy to do this as favours, they are always happy to help me if I need anything, as friends do.

They told me the other day they were going to interview a childminder to pick up their ds from school a couple of days a week, and some full days during the school hols. They told me they were thinking about asking me, but I think they were feeling a bit awkward about it. But we agreed, as I need the money and they need a childminder, it would actually be a perfect arrangement.

I told them, as they were friends, I would not charge them as much as their usual childminder (they have another regular childminder who does weekends and late evenings). They pay her £6ph, I said I would accept £4. They said no, they were happy to pay me the full rate. Anyway, the conversation ended but I went away and decided that I would offer to charge them £5 ph, all inclusive - meaning any extra costs for lunch, entry fees etc, I'd be happy to absorb. This is because they are friends, and I don't want to take the piss.

I looked after their ds from 12-6 today (inset day), took the kids to the farm. She handed me an envelope, said that there was change included for snacks, farm entry etc and rushed off. I was surprised to find £50 inside! £40 notes and £10 change. This works out to more than £6 per hour!

I was going to tell them that it was too much, but my friend reckons I should just keep it, and at most, hand over any change from the £10 for expenses (but spent about £10 on expenses anyway).

AIBU to keep the cash? I just feel that because we're friends, I shouldn't take it. On top of it all, the other childminder came and picked him up 20 mins early!

I live in the grim nearly-North though. I'm betting you don't!

I'm in London buttonmoon, you know, where the streets are paved with gold

I knew Dick Whittington wasn't lying!

Seriously though, you are potentially opening a whole can of worms if you don't do this legally.

Why don't you find out about CMing properly? As well as working from home (and therefore having flexibility for your own dcs) you can offset lots of stuff against any tax you might potentially pay - heat & light, rent, food, mileage (as in proper 40p-for-the-first-whatever-miles mileage), any purchases for CMing etc, a percentage of all these can be placed against tax.

Just ask my ds, he is always finding 'treasure' on the streets (except it looks more like manky hairclips, bottle tops and elastic bands).

But yes, I am definitely going to look into it. I really had no idea about all these implications, having never used a CM before.

I have two friends who help me out with the morning school run. One friend I return the favour and take hers so that equals it out. The other friend I am so grateful for her help that if she didn't do it I wouldn't be able to work. My ds also has SN and so isn't able to go to the conventional breakfast club at his school and it doesn't open early enough anyway!!

She will also have my son in the holidays and NEVER asks for payment but I also leave her money for ice-creams etc of at least £20 (they are very expensive in my area )

I just feel that by her helping me, she is enabling me to work and so in turn she should benefit from that. I am really so grateful that she does it as I honestly don't know what I would do.

I bet this is how your friend/neighbour feels. I would personally keep quiet about this arrangement as you can see from this thread there is a lot of opposition to "unqualified" persons doing care even when they are the best option for the child.

Tell her you will only do it for 5 an hour, plus she can pay for any outing expenses.

Well I am going to be absolutely no help on this thread whatsoever, as I can't decide if OP is BU or not.

I had a friend look after my DTs between the age of 3 months and 1 year. I paid her cash. Before I get flamed, I live in a rural area and the only CM I could find who fulfilled the special OFSTED rules about looking after two under a year old was 55 miles away! We had no problems and it was a win-win situation all round. I trusted her implicitly and didn't feel like I was overstepping the bounds of friendship because I was paying her. That said, nothing went wrong. Said friend became pregnant not long after so my DTs have been in professional, registered childcare ever since.

I can no longer afford to pay friends, even if I wanted to, and TBH although it worked incredibly well in that first year, I wouldn't want to go back to it. I think the world of my CM and I can't say enough complimentary things about her. I hope that our relationship will continue long after my DTs are no longer in her care. However, despite the fact that we are very friendly and ultimately I see a long-term friendship developing between us, we are not, as yet, true friends. She is a paid professional and there are major advantages to that. I can ask her for little favours knowing that, because she is a professional, not a friend, she can say no. I would always worry about a friend agreeing to something they didn't really want to do. It also leaves my friends free to help me out in cases of emergencies and for socialising.

whethergirl.

You need to be registered, what your doing is illegal, and if your obtaining money, you also need to phone the tax man and get a tax code, also phone tac credits to say you are working. Im presuming oure NOT on benefits,?, if you are then you need to tell the benefit agency, that you are now working, as if not, you will be committing benefit fraud.

Also you need liability insurance, this isn't a option when being paid to look after someone else children, also need pediatric first aid safety and safeguarding policy and procedure, and also certificate!. ou would also need a fire plan, and a fire extinguisher.

you also need to phone your house insurance, and tell your mortgage company! as you are now in effect working from home, if they find that you are, and you haven't made the changes, you insurances would be void.
Also if you drive, you need to tell your insurance company also, if not your insurance is void also!.

why do you think childminders need to be registered and insured on ALL levels and also follow ofsted procedures as well as teach the EYFS, its no easy feat!.

what our doing is illegal, potentially fraud and also not safeguarding the child, even if you think you are, because they are NOT covered, or insured in you are care, in the same way your own children is!, your opening yourself up to a whole can of worms.

I think if you continue to do this, you are being a very naive and silly little girl, yes i mean girl, not woman!!.

Whethergirl, you need to listen to the good advice you have been given on here. Offering childcare in return for money in your own home is regulated in this country. That means that if you are working as a unregistered childminder you are breaking the law and are liable to prosecution. Imagine how you will feel if you end up in court over this!

If you really want to continue then arrange to care for these children in their own home and make sure you don't break any benefit or tax rules while doing so.

You may not see the need for childminders to be qualified in first aid or inspected but the law as it stands says that they must be because that offers important protection for a significant number of children. The law isn't there because of what you might do but because of what anyone might do.

If you carry these children in your car your insurance is invalidated and your car can be impounded. Don't kid yourself that the police wouldn't do it. They would.

Stop trying to justify why you think it's ok for you to be an exception to the regulations. You are not an exception.

Think of the consequences if someone reports you. This is highly likely if local registered childminders are aware that you are being paid. It is very easy to find out if someone is registered and they'd have good reason to feel that if they have to be registered and pay insurance, etc, so should you. They aare picking children up from you FGS! They will be aware of what you are doing!

I think you need to wake up and smell the coffee.

I would see this as a huge opportunity for a 'soft' entry into childminding.
For all the reasons everyone has said, yes, you need to do it officially.
You have a great relationship with these children, so is it possible to look after them in their home for payment, and use that cash to put yourself through the hoops so that you can in as short time as possible, have them in your home - and other children in future.
"But we agreed, as I need the money and they need a childminder, it would actually be a perfect arrangement."
none of you sound like pisstakers, and surely there is a demand for CMs & customers on that basis

Regardless of whether its easier this way, you've done it before, you don't need to be registered to look after your own son < >

It's still illegal!

Definitely illegal, unfortunately. You need to either register or stop accepting money.

You have a straight choice I think.

Do it all properly and above board
Or do it cash in hand and don't declare it.

I think that's the long and short of it.

YABVVU - You could be reported and charged. Were you aware that Un-Registered Minding can mean that you can be banned from EVER working with children if you were ever to be charged? Childminders are to be registered so that they are about to care for other peoples children responsibly - these are not your children after all. Insurance is in place for Registered Childminders so that in the event of an accident a child will be cared for. Unpaid work is very different. In accepting a fee you have a business arrangement and therefore you should abide by the law.

You won't get away with it for long - it is not fair to take the business away from people that have worked hard to Register and provide SAFE, monitored and legal child care when you cannot possibly be providing anywhere near the same level of care unregistered. Sorry to rain on your tax free parade.

Your original question was whether you should accept the going rate or accept less. To that, I would say that if you're offering a professional service you should charge the going rate and be business like about it. Mixing business with pleasure always carries some risks.

If you are acting as a child minder, you need to do it properly and above board. As a former lawyer I can tell you that if the child was injured in your care, friendship wouldn't come into it and the parents would be quite entitled (and probably would) pursue a claim against you. It might not succeed, but could cost you thousands to resist the claim. And if their claim did succeed and you had no insurance to pay the claim on your behalf, then the claim would be against you personally, so if you couldn't afford to pay, then you could easily be made bankrupt and potentially lose your house etc. I'm not saying this to scare you but you need to be aware of the risks you're taking if you don't protect yourself.

It would also show your friends that you were taking your responsibilities seriously.

Glassofwhite - nice to know I wasn't talking through my bottom!

And I agree, OP, by registering, not only are you reaping potential rewards, but also showing your friend that you take the care of her children seriously.

FWIW, CM contracts are a sticky point in law (I know as I fell foul of someone taking me for a ride) but if you are not registered, the contract is a) is only useful as loo roll
b) evidence of your illegal operations

TBH, last night I didn't even delve into the tax implications for you, other than as a benefit but if you are self-employed (which is what you are) you need to register with HMRC IIRC within 30 days (I'm fully expecting to be corrected about the length of time, but you don't have very long) otherwise you can be subject to all sorts of penalties. You will have to inform tax credits and benefits as otehrs have said. You may not 'lose' anything, but you still need to tell them. You need to register for NI and pay it or claim small earnings exemption. You will need to fill in an annual tax return. You will need to keep receipts for everything and proper records inc registers and accident/medication books etc.

I would take all that happily for £6-7 per hour. However, it's the same wherever you are in the country, but when you're getting just over £3ph it doesn't seem worth it!

I hope you've been reading this thread still, as all these points are valid. And don't think for one minute that no one will care, they won't report you. They will care, and they may well report you. And if they don't but you ever end up in a situation like glassofwhite describes, then you may well wish they had!

This was high profile a couple of years ago (sorry its from Daily Fail but it was all over news). These two women had reciprocal agreement and no money changed hands - they still got stopped from doing it.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1216471/Policewoman-banned-babysitting-friend-says-children.html

This is quote from another article on the above link

"Rules state that friends cannot gain a ?reward? by looking after a child for more than two hours outside the child?s home unless they register with Ofsted and follow the same regulations as normal childminders."

I have decided, for many reasons, not to continue with this arrangement. One reason is that I had no idea how many do gooders there were out there, and it's people like the ones on this thread that might even be living next door to me and have nothing better to do than be a rat.

I am quite bemused at how many people have chosen to ignore my actual AIBU question, and instead get on their high horses, belittle me, and comment on areas of my life of which is none of your business. I did not ask AIBU for doing the childminding, so anyone actually commenting on that needs to get a life. Next you'll be telling me, that when my mum looked after my ds all day once, I bought her a dress as a thank you present, that I was committing a crime.

myBOYSareBONKERS - thank you, a real life person who understands rather than someone who gets off on quoting the law every other sentence.

GoFullForce, fuck off and don't call me a silly girl. A silly girl would feel intimidated by you trying to tell me off. Whereas I just think you need to get a life or just watch Judge Judy and get off on that.

Everyone, please stop going on about my car, car insurance, and the apparent inevitability of a car accident. I don't have a car. I can barely afford to get a bus let alone buy petrol.

stoatie - what I would like to quote back at you re that article, are 99% of the comments written underneath.

whethergirl - your original question has been answered many times. I can remember from other threads that you have a tendency to criticise people that don't give you the answers you want. Sorry.

OP I think you have overreacted to the comments on this thread. People on here are genuinely trying to help you as you could get into a lot of trouble for childminding illegally. It's a shame that you can't see that.

whethergirl - you miss understand me - I don't agree with what happened to the policewomen - I was pointing it out to you as in it happened and as you have commented already - whilst the arrangement would work well for you and your friends - somone else will disapprove and may dob you in

My favourite bit of legislation for this type of thing is The Childcare (Exemptions from Registration) (Amendment) Order 2010 which came about following the case stoatie mentioned about the two police officers caring for each other's child. Please can all of you who think that someone caring for friends child needs to be registered read this short piece of legislation. UK Government does not want situations where the agreement is between friends to fall under Childminder Registration.

The issue is Money. If payment is done in the forms of Goods, then suddenly it all becomes legal. A friend could buy your food shopping on occasion. Any lawyer on here want to object to that?

I feel you are being unreasonable to charge going rate for childcare, given that in the example you gave you took a friend's child to the farm. It was an outing where I presume your friends child and your own child played, socialised together. Asking friend to cover expenses is fine in my view but not for actual childcare.

Anyone who cares for a child needs to take reasonable steps to ensure the child's safety. In the event of there being a major issue, then the parents of that child may well sue... and even with liability insurance, that may not be covered - insurers don't like paying out, so there will lots of fine print to go through. Life is a risk, don't rely on insurance to provide protection... protection starts with YOU... you need to take reasonable steps to make sure you and children with you are as safe as is reasonable given the circumstances.

BabyYoureAFirework - it was the only question I wanted answered, and it got swept to the side somewhat. Also I think you are mistaking me for someone else? I've never heard of you and I've always had some fabulous advice on here regarding relationships ec. which I've always been very grateful for. On the other hand, I am also entitled to my own opinions.

Eglu - Maybe because I feel I am being cornered somewhat? And also because I don't really feel some people on this thread are 'genuinely trying to help me'. They are repeating what others have already said, and trying to put me in my place, for their own amusement. (It's not like this doesn't happen on Mumsnet!)

Stoatie - apologies, I thought you I saw you coming at me with a pitchfork! Great article though, thanks for that, just goes to show how ridiculous things can get.

'might even be living next door to me and have nothing better to do than be a rat.'

Good. I hope they do. I bet you had a moan about MPs fiddling their expenses? Or benefit cheats?

There are so many reasons why this is a bad idea:

1. If you are receiving tax credits or benefits, you should let them know.
2. If you don't declare to HMRC you will be effectively stealing by not declaring your income and paying tax
3. You could pay less tax by offsetting expenses
4. Your friends won't be able to claim any child care element of WTC if you are not registered.
5. It's illegal.

So really, your original question is irrelevant.