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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Ken Clarke differentiates date rape from 'serious rape'

773 replies

NotFromConcentrate · 18/05/2011 12:07

AIBU to think it's time he went?

OP posts:
culturemulcher · 18/05/2011 13:20

YANBU off you go, Ken Angry

MrsBethel · 18/05/2011 13:22

NotFromConcentrate
I'm not getting involved. Whatever anyone says on this topic, there's always a risk someone will misconstrue it and arrive at an abhorrent conclusion.

TandB · 18/05/2011 13:23

I heard the tail end of a news story about this on the radio this morning - I only caught the part about offering 50% sentence discounts for guilty pleas and missed the part about these comments.

I would like to think that this was a slip of the tongue and he was intending to differentiate between consensual sex narrowly below the age of consent - what the US calls statutory rape - and "proper" rape, ie non-consensual sex. However, sadly I don't think it was a slip of the tongue and I think he has let slip that he, like many others, does not consider so-called date rape to be actual rape. I might have been more inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt had I not heard a lay magistrate say something in court recently which reflected a very worrying, out-dated attitude - I posted about this on the clothing/rape thread.

In terms of the underage sex issue, I think this should be dealt with very differently from non-consensual sex. I also posted on that other thread that I think it would be helpful if rape, whatever the circumstances, was effectively dealt with as completely separate to all other sexual offences, rather than being treated as the most serious form of sexual assault - I think we do currently have a situation which invites a sliding scale mentality and I also think it would help to emphasise that rape is, at its heart, an offence of violence, not of "stolen sex", if that makes sense.

I would like to reiterate a view that I have expressed before on these sort of threads and that is that it is very easy to have a knee-jerk response and say "well our criminal justice system is rubbish". The system isn't perfect by any means, but there have been some important improvements over the last few years and people often cite outdated practices. For example, someone on the other thread asked why rapists are allowed to cross-examine their victims. This has not been permitted for a long time - no defendant in an offence involving violence or sexual matters is permitted to question the complainant. If the defendant is self-represented then the court will, at the expense of the central court fund, instruct an independent defence solicitor for the sole purpose of asking those questions. I have acted in this capacity on more than one occasion - the idea is to place a filter between the defendant and the witness - I have had to weed out inappropriate questions that would otherwise have been asked.

Another misconception - the complainant is generally not questioned about her sexual history these days. It would be unusual circumstances that led to it being permitted and the assumption is that no such questions will be asked.

The system has recognised the problems inherent in these cases and has made changes, but it does worry me that people are very quick to call for the removal of such cases from juries and the removal of the right for complainants to be questioned in court. These are fundamentals of our justice system and to start removing them gives rise to some quite scary prospects.

I think there is much that needs to change but I think relatively little of that can come from the law itself. I think the CPS need to have a serious look at how their victims/witnesses are supported and involved in the case in the run-up to trial, but more importantly I think the views of society still need to be challenged, because what it generally comes down to is what 12 ordinary people believe about rape. If they believe the myths they will generally acquit. If they are better informed then they might still acquit, but they will at least give proper weight to a complainant's account in the absence of any other supporting evidence.

Domestic violence often involves one person's word against another - conviction rates are much better. Obviously this is partly because there are always going to be injuries of some sort if the offence is serious enough to come before a jury at the crown court, whereas with rape there may be no evidence other than the complainant's account, but I think that some of this discrepancy comes down to the fact that society's attitudes towards domestic violence have moved on and attitudes towards rape have lagged behind.

I didn't mean this to be so long but it is something I feel very strongly about - rape is something that is dealt with in our criminal justice system, like all other offences and yet it has real problems that don't seem to affect other offences. I think the government keep coming up with gimmicky, knee-jerk responses to this issue. I don't think rape should be "ring-fenced" within the justice system with laws and procedures changed piecemeal to deal with the problems - I think the problem has a much deeper root in the attitudes of society.

The 50% reduction thing is a classic example - it is a gimmick. If someone won't plead guilty for a drop from 6 years to 4 years, say, they are not going to do it for a drop to 3 years. The government just want to be seen to be doing something about an uncomfortable issue.

OhYouBadBadKitten · 18/05/2011 13:23

Rape is Rape and it is a violent crime. Sometimes there is additional violence but I don't think for the purpose of debate that additional violence should confuse the issue of what rape is.

It is this bit actually that utterly horrifies me:

"During other television interviews Clarke appeared to claim that campaigners had only singled out rape because it injected a degree of "sexual excitement" into the argument over discounts for early guilty pleas."

I think that summarises his attitude.

NotFromConcentrate · 18/05/2011 13:25

MrsBethel I am not deliberately misconstruing anything. I just wonder why he distinctly referred to date rape seperately.

Apologies, as you posted I took that to be that you were getting involved.

OP posts:
sfxmum · 18/05/2011 13:26

perhaps this is from the same school of though as Nadine

NotFromConcentrate · 18/05/2011 13:27

sfxmum Don't - I might combust Wink

OP posts:
wigglesrock · 18/05/2011 13:28

"Another misconception - the complainant is generally not questioned about her sexual history these days. It would be unusual circumstances that led to it being permitted and the assumption is that no such questions will be asked."

Kungfu Can I just ask in what circumstances would a complainant be asked about their sexual history? Interested not being arsey.

MrsBethel · 18/05/2011 13:29

NotFromConcentrate
I don't think you are misconstruing anything. But some people are. Including the Guardian. I haven't seen PMQs yet, so I'll reserve judgement on Milliband for now.

I posted so everyone could see what he actually said. Large parts of the media are reluctant to quote him in full, as they want people to infer a meaning he never intended.

TandB · 18/05/2011 13:30

Meant to say - I would also be strongly against any suggestion that rape should be broken down into different types of offence, ie level of violence used.

The offence is the rape - that is what the person is being sentenced for. All other such issues are aggravating factors which add time onto the sentence. Creating a sliding scale would only serve to trivialise date rape and other situations.

TandB · 18/05/2011 13:34

To be honest, I find it hard to think of such a situation these days, Wigglesrock. It hasn't happened in any case I have been involved in. I was involved in a case (actually a false allegation as it turned out) where there was an application made to do so because of the particular nature of a previous medical matter. I don't want to go into detail but the complainant stated she had no sexual experience at all and yet there was something in her medical history which strongly contradicted this. Even in those circumstances the judge did not permit the questioning. She was a very young complainant though - I don't know whether he might have taken a different view with an older witness.

wigglesrock · 18/05/2011 13:40

Many thanks kungfupannda.

HalfPastWine · 18/05/2011 13:41

I can't believe that he could consider reducing the sentence of a rapist, it's like saying it's not a crime worthy of a long sentence.
If the sentence is reduced it will be like a license to rape.

The man is a complete cock.

luvvinlife · 18/05/2011 13:42

He did not differentiate as you suggest.

That is a disingenous lie.

jenny60 · 18/05/2011 13:43

YANBU but who seriously thinks he will lose his job over this? Not me, sadly.
So sorry to hear about so many experiences of rapes here. Sad

ElephantsAndMiasmas · 18/05/2011 13:44

who are you talking to, luvvinlife?

KSal · 18/05/2011 13:44

as much as i hate to find myself defending a Tory minister.... we need to be careful not to base these opinions on what we have been told he said. I listened to the interview live on air and, while i think the langage he used was offensive and insensitive in places, he did not try to claim that date rape was a lesser rape.

He did draw a distinction between statutory rape and other kinds of rape in that the victim is unable to legally consent even if they were willing. In fact my understanding of what he was saying was that those particular cases were skewing the sentencing figures (not date rape as suggested above).

He did say that severity of sentencing reflects the individual cases - this is just true, its what happens in the courts

I think this argument is being confused by milliband skewing the quotes in PMQs.

Please don't think i agree with his policy proposal or the language he used, but i think opinions are being attributed to him that he just did not express. I do think he stated something MUCH more worrying and that is that he thought that rape cases were being brought into this discussion (i.e. time off for admitting guilt) to add some 'sexual excitement' to the story.... deeply offensive IMHO

flowery · 18/05/2011 13:45

I heard this in the car earlier and my mouth was open with amazement (although I don't know why really). He definitely let slip that he believes date rape doesn't 'count' as serious rape.

luvvinlife · 18/05/2011 13:45

Only about 5% of rape accusations ever come to court.

Surley if offering this reduction (subject to the victims consent) means that many more men admit to the offence, sparing the victim the hell of a court cross examination, then it has to be a good thing.

I would add that if they still deny their guilt and are then found guilty the sentence is increased by 50%.

TandB · 18/05/2011 13:46

Halfpastwine - like I said, it's a gimmick. It isn't even that big a change. There is already an automatic one-third reduction for a guilty plea - there is provision for that reduction to be reduced or waived if the evidence is overwhelming, but it hardly ever happens in practice. The reduction has been 1/3 for a long, long time now.

Basically, this suggestion is saying "Not enough people are pleading guilty to rape so let's make it a more attractive prospect". People hardly ever plead guilty to rape - it is such a difficult offence to prove in many circumstances that most defendants presumably think they might as well take their chances. An offer of another 20% off the sentence isn't going to change that.

luvvinlife · 18/05/2011 13:48

He said that there are different types of rape and as the court gives sentences from 3 years to life then that is a fact.

He said a 17yr old man having consentual sex with a 15yr old girl is still classed as rape when clearly that is not as serious as other types of rape. I can't argue with that. That is not the same as saying date rape is ok or not serious because that wasn't what he said.

For once I am applauding a man for trying to tackle the awful conviction rates for rape.

luvvinlife · 18/05/2011 13:50

Milliband was a disgrace at PMQ, trying to make political capital by basically lying about what Clarke said about rape.

catinthehat2 · 18/05/2011 13:54

Clarke is an experienced politician
he screwed the pooch today big time.
not just labour tribalists who think so, it's widespread
THAT is why he will be toast in the next reshuffle
the next reshuffle will be along very shortly and will also involve Chris Huhne

TandB · 18/05/2011 13:58

You see I have read his comments and I don't see how you can get away from the fact that he is saying that some date rapes are not as serious as other rapes. Every rape is as serious as every other rape. The fact that there are different sentences reflects the fact that some rapes involve other aggravating factors. If someone gets 3 years for raping a woman who accompanied him back to his flat and then declined to have sex with him, and someone else gets 10 years for dragging a woman off the street, beating her, telling her he would kill her, holding a knife to her throat etc, this doesn't mean that the act of rape was more or less serious, simply that one offence also involved violence, threats and weapons.

wigglesrock · 18/05/2011 14:00

luvvinlife As far as I heard he intonated that serious rape = being dragged into an alley by a stranger etc and that for example date rape was not as serious a crime. I remember this kind of argument being used in "you can't be raped within marriage" discussions.