AIBU to not get the 'have to stay for the kids' thing

[teahouse]

A very good friend of mine is not in the greatest marriage. His wife apparently thinks everything is fine, but he doesn't, and although I do only hear one side of the story, if I had an unhappy partner I wouldn't deny something is wrong which apparently is her stance!

They have older teenage kids and other family commitments but am I being unreasonable in not understanding why he stays - you only have one shot at life and if being married to someone for the next XX years doesn't fill you with anything but dread, why waste those years.

If your relationship is one that you would hate your kids being in, why is it OK for you as a parent.

Does parenthood mean giving up a sense of self worth and abandoning happiness in the name of duty (although if someone was religious then duty may well be fine, but for the non-religious it seems a very lame excuse)?

Oblomov, I am no expert, was citing Susan Golombok's book "Parenting: what really counts?". It's a really interesting summary of the research evidence on how different kinds of family structures affect children.

You CAN research this area and draw general conclusions. What is harder is to then apply it to individual situations, especially from the outside. How much unhappiness is too much unhappiness? How resilient are your particular children? What situation will they be living in their family does break up and they have to leave the family home? It's far too complex to have one answer.

I think the point is that general research is actually pretty unhelpful as every situation is totally different. Hence each example on here is totally valid yet there are so many contradictions.

Only the adults / parents in each marriage know for sure what is right for them and for their children.

Sometimes though what is best for the parents is not the same as what is best for the children, and a choice must be made.

FWIW I don't expect a "medal" for staying with dh and I don't accept some of the claptrap about subjugating myself etc - this isn't a feminist issue for me.

I would have hated for my parents to have stayed together in an unhappy marriage - the guilt as an adult that one or both of them had put up with years of unhappiness and wasted their life 'for me', and the realisation that behind the smiles in all those happy memories, at least one of them was miserable?

No thanks.

I think everyone is being very kind to you.

To me, you seem "as a friend" to be looking to persuade him to get out of the marriage.

And be with you?

Or maybe I'm just an old cynic.

My parents are divorced. No hard feelings. I'm happier that they were both happy than stayed unhappy together. It IS possible to have an amicable divorce.

I do feel a bit pushed out of my dad's new family, but I don't think it had to be that way. He could have handled it better. There are lots of happy stepfamilies on MN. I hope that if I get to the point of moving in with someone that I would handle it sensitively with DS and keep him feeling involved. I feel sad enough that his own Dad was useless, if I can't

I think it should be more acceptable to leave unhappy relationships - so many people are trapped in abusive relationships and yes, I know people always except the abusive situations, but it's hard to recognise one when you're in it, and this overwhelming message of "Relationships are hard, you should stay together for the children" is dangerous in some cases. The focus should be on ensuring a relationship is good before introducing children into it, with better expectations of what a good relationship is.

Hester, I did appreciate that you were quoting a book. maybe I should read thta book. I am always fascinated how different children come out of the same family. My brother remmebers totally different things about our family life to what I do and what my elderer brother does. But then middle brother is natuarlly less self-assured than my eldest brother and me. Is that a nature vs nurture thing ?

I will never stay. I would never want anyone to stay with me. I would never want my children to stay with someone either. I want them to have the relationship that they deserve and never to settle for anything less.
I have the relationship I craved, with dh. I hope that by seeing this, my ds's see how good it can be/should be, for them too.

I do not see divorce as something that bad.

And like others have said I think it is healthy and right for my ds's to see the 'journey' of my relationship with dh. Highs and lows. Sometimes I am so in love with dh I don't know what to do with myself. Occasionally I am not sure I even like him that much. Mostly we just trot along nicely. To me, that is normal and healthy and I want my ds's to see that.

I wonder what the most damaging part of 'divorce', is ?

Agree with Bertie. whats so bad about divorce? You are only allowed to do it, if someones abusing you, or the children. Is that the only valid reason ? Not to me, its not.
What about people changing? not treating you the way they used to ? what about accepting that you may have just simply made a big mistake, an error in judgement. You thought man was this and thta. And you got it wrong. many people do this when they are young , and don't know any better. And I bet you try and try. To work at it, saev your marriage. But sometimes you are fighting a losing battle. Trying t deny the inevitable. The man was not who you thought'. And so, you leave. And go to find a relationship that is worthy of you. And think how happy you will be then. And possibly how happy your children will also be. And how happy theuy will be (subconsciously) to see you as haoppy as you should be.
well, thats how it all plays out in my imaginary little world.

I don't think its the splitting up that causes children's problems - more its how the parents deal with the separation. Have things got so bad that they actually hate each other? Or have painful affairs?

I actually think way too many parents use their children to hide behind and don't take control.

I only know one person who I can categorically say is staying with their husband for their children's sake. The atmosphere at their house, when the husband is home, is tense and edgy. There is an apparent lack of warmth, silliness and relaxation. They point score against each other and bite their tongues.

I think both parties would be better separating and the children experiencing the best of their parents characters. Individually they are both lovely people but there is so much resentment. Interestingly, her mother stayed with her husband for the sake of the children too. Do you think it might be hereditary?

My parents are separated - and I think its brilliant. They met when they were very young. They are chalk and cheese - Although the divorce was very acrimonious, they separated when they were both still young enough (mid 40's) to carve out new lives for themselves - which as a grown up child, I think is brilliant. How awful would it be for them to separate as OAP's? I think I would feel terribly responsible for them at a time when I am having my own children.

Life is a very long journey.

YAB a bit U. My parents divorce totally screwed my sister up, from when she was little to the present day (she's 27) she didn't get over it. Even though I'm reasonably well-adjusted, a lot of the personal issues I struggle with are a direct result of not having my dad around, feeling that I had to prove myself to him, only valuing myself as others see me etc.

Obviously there are exceptions, such as abusive relationships but I do think that people give up on relationships too easily. We have a throwaway culture nowadays, which sadly extends to marriage as well.

Do you have kids, OP? Because it seems pretty fundamental to being a parent that you do what is best for the kids, not what is best for the parents. In some cases it is better for the kids if you stay married, in some cases it is better for the kids that you separate.

I don't see that as a hard concept to grasp. Unless you are the other woman.

YABU

Some of us take a vow when we get married that says "for better for worse, for richer for poorer". It is not wrong to do one's best to stick by that vow even through difficult times .

This is such a sad thread. I really do think that "staying together for the sake of the kids" is a toxic statement which only serves to heap guilt and duty upon parents who are unhappy. Yes of course fight for the relationship but there can be wisdom in knowing when to give up too.

I don't regret for a moment leaving my exH, it took me 2 years to pluck up the courage to do it and I do think staying would have been far worse for our kids than separating has been.

I think sometimes it's important for children to know that parents have needs too - I'd hate the responsibility of being told my parents stayed together despite unhappiness purely for my benefit (my own mother stayed with my abusive alcoholic father far longer than she should have).

I want to model self respect and self love to my kids, I don't think it would do them any good for me to become a martyr to their needs.

No yanbu.

It's a cowardly delusion notion 'staying for the kids' and I know because I was doing that for a period of time. SO glad I'm not there any more.

Has he even bothered to tell his wife how he feels?

I do think some people seem to split too easily though-and I wonder if it´s the being married that is the thing rather than the person they are with.

That said, most just seem to take up with someone else and it just seems like such a waste.

I do think that life is too short to stay in an unhappy marriage-but I also woder how many could have worked through it.

Imo all the talk in the media and all the 'research' are about the effect the divorce supposed to have on the children. But there is no research on the effect that 'staying together' has on the dcs. Especially when they find one day that their parents did such sacrifice for them.

Not all cases of divorce are bad, i know few people who have managed to have a civilised divorce and their dcs seem fine. But if you worry that your dh/dw will screw up the dcs if you divorce then how can you stay in the same house with this person?

A distant cousin of mine is caring for her mother who has mental health problems as result of her bad marriage. She stayed for her dd's sake. Her dd now carries the guilt and feels obligation to nurse her, she had to leave her job and relocate. Ironically she pays the price for her mother staying in an unhappy relationship (for her sake).

Well when i got married i most definitely meant my vows and entered into marriage believing we would grow old together. We had our ups and downs and never ever did i think of leaving at anytime, we worked through our problems always whether it was about money or whatever.
Even when i found out my h was having an affair with my best friend i gave him another chance when he said it was over with her and that he wanted to be with me and dd. This affair devastated me and believe me that was very hard to deal with but we were married and even then i never thought about walking away. But 3 months later when i caught them in bed together i walked away from my 13 year marriage.
It takes 2 people to work on a marriage/relationship and cant work when only 1 of you is putting in the effort.

No way was i staying with my h for the sake of my dd, we would have had a miserable life with me never trusting him.

Some people may have been able to do it but not me, i gave him a chance and he blew it.

for you feelingOld

Usually this 'staying for the dcs' means that one person takes the mic and the other person suffers (usually, but not always, the woman).

Very interesting thread .

My parents divorced when I was 6 ,mainly because my Mum was fed up and bored .

It was not a good time for me ,or my little sister .

I remember watching him (through tears) load small bits of furniture on to his roof rack ,then driving away in to the distance .

In situations like mine (all things equal ) I don't think my Mum should have pressed for a divorce .

Children have a right to have both parents at home ,I should have had my Dad around more .

This opinion (of course) can be picked apart . When adults have children they no longer came first IMO .

Those that say divorce is better than listening to screaming parents ...true but don't scream then ,behave like adults and respect your children's space .

Again ,I am not suggesting any form of abusive situation should be put up with ,not at all . However , I have heard so many cases of just giving up being a valid excuse for divorce ~that can't be right can it ?

It takes 2 people to work on a marriage/relationship and cant work when only 1 of you is putting in the effort.

Exactly what I was going to say. If one person wants to work at the relationship and stay together and the other person wants to shag around and make no effort what can you do then? People either want to be with you or they don't, you can't change someone else's behaviour, only your own.

Up to a point I agree with you about it being better out of a bad marriage than for the children to carry on, but its one of these things which is probably true in theory but in practice when you're deeply dug into a family, however dysfunctional or unsatisfying, its very difficult to leave. And the guilt associated with leaving your children purely on the grounds of not being 100% happy in the marriage is too much for a lot of people.

my brother divorced his wife as that was the best thing for the kids. it's not healthy for kids to live in such a deeply unhappy environment. also there is no way they can hide that level of unhappyness from the children - kids are very sensitive/aware. they set a bad example of what a relationship should be. surely its better for the kids to have two happy parents - even if they are living apart.

My parents' divorce was the best thing ever for the family. They had a rubbish marriage but a good divorce! My Dad moved out a few miles away so was always close by, he used to pop round a couple of times a week and we could see him whenever we wanted at weekends. Anything important to do with the children my parents discussed and made joint decisions. The divorce allowed my parents to respect each other as individuals and move on with their lives and I don't think for a second that they'd have been better parents if they'd have remained married. I'm very glad that they didn't remain married 'for the sake of the children'. You can still put the children first without remaining in a failing marriage.

To answer a few questions; yes I am divorced and have two very contented settled late teenage kids - I'm been an LP for over a decade, and they have a half-sibling from their fathers second marriage.

I don't understand because I did leave - it wasn't easy but I felt staying would be bad all round; if I wasn't happy how could I parent my kids effectively? Yes they missed out on the latest trainers but they are both wonderful and have never given me any real cause for concern.

My very good friend does talk to his wife - I am just a sounding board for him (I have a counselling diploma so it's not as strange as it sounds), and it is their decision what they do; I just listen to his gripes and try not to advise too much. I have suggested counselling but he doesn't want to go - no idea why but assuming he counsellor-phobic like many people, but who knows, money might be an issue. Also he does know that my exH and I went to Relate and it was not a good experience for either of us - I think individual counselling works better as an initial 'in', and then couples after that and that was my advise which hasn't been followed.

I posed this question because I am struggling why a bright man could contemplate a future that he wouldn't want for anyone else; seems a tad masochistic to me and can't be a good example to the children (who do know things are right apparently; seperate holidays, no affection shown and a constant atmosphere appear to be the order of the day). I guess the fear of change stops some people but there are questions I feel I can't ask him - so you lot are my sounding board ;o)

It's not the separation but how you separate.

If it's amicable the children will be ok ime.

The kids know that things aren't right though. So they learn that parents lie to them and that happiness isn't important and that their parents are miserable because of them.

Best thing my parents did was get divorced. I so wish it had happened 10 years earlier.

If you've tried to make the marriage work and it's not happening, for whatever reason, then it's better to leave before further resentment builds. IMO.