AIBU to not get the 'have to stay for the kids' thing

[teahouse]

A very good friend of mine is not in the greatest marriage. His wife apparently thinks everything is fine, but he doesn't, and although I do only hear one side of the story, if I had an unhappy partner I wouldn't deny something is wrong which apparently is her stance!

They have older teenage kids and other family commitments but am I being unreasonable in not understanding why he stays - you only have one shot at life and if being married to someone for the next XX years doesn't fill you with anything but dread, why waste those years.

If your relationship is one that you would hate your kids being in, why is it OK for you as a parent.

Does parenthood mean giving up a sense of self worth and abandoning happiness in the name of duty (although if someone was religious then duty may well be fine, but for the non-religious it seems a very lame excuse)?

Personally I think having two happy but seperate parents is better than living in a house where the parents make each other miserable. My parents were miserable and it wasn't conducive to being happy or stable.

I think in most cases it's right to stay together and try and make a marriage work for the kids sake. I think the only exception would be if the relationship was abusive or if one parent was abusive to the children.

I think the parents have an obligation 'for the sake of the children' to try their utmost to work through things which includes going to counselling if you can't manage it yourself.

However, if the relationship has irrevocably broken down, then in no way is it good for the children to stay together. Of course the parents have to put the children first and that means staying on speaking and polite terms, being accommodating about visitation and maintenance and for the resident parent doing his/her utmost to facilitate the relationship with the non-resident parent. I think seeing parents negotiate a marital breakdown sensibly and responsibly and then being able to move on is far better for children than seeing miserable parents in an unfulfiling relationship with all the tension that will bring to a household.

I think your friend needs to be open and honest and work through the issues in his marriage. Just staying as a default option isn't doing the best for the children. He needs to take an active role in trying to make the marriage work.

If you're miserable and you've tried everything in your power to make it better but nothing improves then IMO it's better to get out. I left ex DH after 10 years together. We were both miserable and I didnt think our relationship was demonstrating to DD what a loving relationship should be like. I never once regretted it.

Well, it's a matter of degree isn't it? I am thankful on an almost daily basis that my dad bailed out, because he's a violent abusive alcoholic. No way would it have been better for us to have had him around.

But most fathers aren't like that, and we undoubtedly suffered from not having a father - not least because we were desperately poor, and my mum was exhausted and traumatised, and none of us got enough nurturing attention.

There is plenty of evidence that divorce causes psychological distress to children. That distress calms over time, but it is not eradicated. But what are we comparing it to? The research I've read suggests that children do pretty well in families where the parents are only together for the children, but managing to keep relatively cordial and constructive. Open discord and abuse is obviously far more damaging, and may easily be worse for children than divorce.

So it doesn't make sense to have a one-size-fits-all rule, but generally I think that if the parents can hold it together reasonably amiably, then they should try to do so.

I think the research finds it very difficult to tangle out the effect of divorce itself from
a) the effect of marital discord, and
b) the involvement of the non resident parent (usually the Dad)

I've not seen anything that shows that divorce per se causes psychological distress once you take into account the two above factors.

Because when you have children, it's not all about only you and your 'shot' anymore.

Parenthood means making the best decision for your children until they are old enough to make their own decisions and mistakes, even if that sometimes means putting your own desires on the backburner for a while for their benefit. Sometimes that means leaving a marriage, particularly when there's abuse or rows or both parties are utterly miserable.

Sometimes that means staying for a while.

The divorce itself is hardly the only issue for the children to come to terms with. Far more toxic is if one or both of their parents then hooks up with another (and another) and have children together so that they are pushed out of their own parent's lives and become the third wheel in a 'blended' family, whether they like it or not.

That is the most tragic thing for the children of a break up. And selfishness on the part of the parents to seek their own happiness at their children's expense.

I'm not sure I would class my relationship with DP toxic .

We have dd2 who is a step sister to dd1 and we are pretty happy. When I left ex DH I signed everything over to him, didn't ask for a penny and we have joint custody of dd1. It's worked out well. Although ex DH was a shit husband, he was and still is (in his own way) a good father. Dd1 is happy and has actually blossomed since I left her father.

I think there is too much pressure on women to give up their self. We have, as women, only been granted full subjectivity for a very short time, in historical terms. there is still huge, culturally assumed, pressure on women to put their selfhood second - second to everything; children included.

so I am always massively suspicious of opinions such as ones that say women people should stay together for the children, or that women people give up on marriage too easily.

Even in situations where there is not outright abuse or violent discord, there can be a devastating lack of intimacy. Given that the cultural climate is not one that actively encourages open marriages, or relationships in which two adults co-parent, whilst finding intimacy and sexual satisfaction elsewhere, that means that women people who "stay for the children" are living lives without intimacy and without sex and sexuality until - when? - their sixties. when, at last, they can embark on a journey towards full self-hood again.

Given the current set-up of the "private" family, that makes the dysfuntional family a very lonely place for the unhappy spouse/s.

A lot of the damage caused by family break-up is almost certainly down to poverty. It would make more sense, if we really cared about children, as a society, to financially support single parents, and the children here, rather than heaping yet more pressure on women people to "stay for the children".

As a 'very good friend' of this man, you should suggest couples parenting. Children pick up on relationship woes even when parents stay together. A rekindling of marriage or an amicable separation are far better than plugging along which will lead to more heartache in the end.

Couples counseling, I mean. (Sorry, preggie brain... 10 days left.)

I think that if there are a lot of rows/tension or any kind of emotional and physical abuse it's much better to just get divorced. But if life just isn't quite what you think it should be then maybe it's better to stay together. It's also a very hard decision when children are teenagers because they have so much going on - GCSEs and A levels can be fucked up by divorces. If the children are in their late teens I can understand why someone might wait a few years to end a marriage. But if it's a matter of being deeply dissatisfied for 15 years or more I think it's better to split up.

Really depressing, this thread. So many of you unhappy with your relationships? Filled with cold dread at the thought of staying in them, yet you do? For the sake of the kids? Even the person who said she would hate to see her DD in the same kind of relationship yet who stays in it herself... what kind of example are you setting for your DD?

It's not about the children's happiness over the parents. There's no need to choose between them. Life happens, it's not always roses and puppies. The happiness comes in how you handle life's not-so-great situations. Not in how well you martyr yourself in some misguided attempt to make your children artificially happy.

No idea about the people in the OP but in general, if you've put an honest try towards making a relationship work and it just isn't happening, there's no medal for sticking around and living out your years in dread and unhappiness because you believe that's better for your kids. animula has it dead right.

I am sleeping on the sofa tonight, not for my benefit but for my kids. Is it really such a good idea to stay together for the DCs? had the MOST horrendous argument with DH re DCs about 10 mins ago. Told him I w3ant out as he is a shit dad as I called it.
Is it really a good idea to stay in a silently hostile marriage for the DCs sake?

Life is too short to waste being unhappy, or trying to create some kind of fake happy family set-up, when the reality is you would rather be with anyone than your DH/DW.

The only reason I think that could possibly justify it is if one parent thought the other would make access difficult/impossible after a split - I can see how for some the thought of long drawn out court proceedings involving DC might make some reluctant to split. Am just glad that wasn't a situation I found myself in, there's no way I could have lived a day longer with my Ex than I did.

Well my ds is the reason im still in a relationship with dp even though he's moved out, Im not convinced that he would bother to see ds otherwise and it would be utterly devestating to ds never to see him again.
When you have kids its not just about you.
Fwiw, I would rather not be in this relationship, but its not abusive and until something changes this is the way its going to stay for the moment.

animula/Kitty, on what do you based your views? Have you actually asked the children what they prefer (in a non-loaded way)? I was the child in my parents' unhappy marriage, no rows, no violence, just unhappiness due to incompatibility.

Trust me, I infinitely preferred them to stay together, or at least until I had finished my uni. They married in haste, they made their bed and lay in it. I am truly grateful to them.

Why does he stay?! Why doesn't he talk to his wife about things instead of you??

I stayed with ex h for about 4 yrs too long,we no longer got on at all and were on different wavelengths.We didnt really row much just hardly spoke.I kidded myself i coulnt break up cos of kids,house,job etc.He then had an affair which ended up causing far more damage and pain than if we'd found a way to part earlier.It also damaged ds's relationship ith him cos all they see is him cheating on Mum despite me telling them the marriage was in trouble,they believe what they want to.

I disagree with Expat. My childrens happiness does not rate above mine. My children are only one member of the human race. quite insignificant really. as am I. I think we all have a self inflated egotistical view of our own importance. Both my sons happiness is important. as is mine, as is dh's. As is mine and dh's in our relationship as huband and wife. without our relationship, there IS no 'family' ( i.e. family unit) for the ds's to be part OF.
I question Hesters resecrh. I mean how can you actually research this. Which relates to Blueshoes question. If you asked one kid what they prefer , to stay or go, in any given situation.. They may well give a different answer to you or me. In fact my mum was part of the adoption Team for many years, and sometimes you had 5 children, 3 saying they wanted to stay, 2 saying they wanted to go. How can thta be ?
Plus how can you research ? You ask someone would you have prefered to stay ? But they can't really answer can they ? They may THINK they know what the alternative may have been like, but they don't really know. It could have been worse !! No one will ever know !Becasue all we can go on is the fact thta the mum did leave. Or if they stayed and you asked the child, would you have wanted to go ? How can they answer thta. They Know not what life MAY have been like if the parent had done the opposite.
Thus, kind of impossible.

Well speaking from experience, the best thing my parents ever did was get a divorce. They shouldn't have left it so long though, they eventually seperated when I was 10. Up until then, I lived in a house with a terminal atmosphere, no love between my parents, I heard rows at night coming from downstairs, heard them in the morning. It was horrible. I was much much much happier once they parted, because they were much happier too.

I don't buy into this "stay together for the kids" nonsense. However, I don't disagree that there are couples out there who fall out of love with each other but remain perfectly amicable and happy living together, even if not as lovers. For those situations where one or both parents are truly unhappy, I feel it damages the children to stay together. It certainly damaged me, and I still suffer some effects from it today, 21 years later.

and once the kids grow up and move out what are you left with??? my bf parents sleep in separate room have separate front room and basically only come together at dinner times. he is only now realising the effect their relationship had on him he never saw them kiss or touch or display any affection towards each other, what does that teach your children, to only expect to rub along with the one you are suppose to love? to accept second best. the guilt him and his siblings now feel because they now know that the parents stayed together 'for the good of the kids and are basically stuck that way, so you are damned if you do and you are damned if you dont. i for one would never stay for the good of the kids i am not the martyr type, my children deserve a happy childhood and i will do everything in my power to provide it for them. but i deserve a happy life and a chance at a happy future once the children have grown up to have their own lives.

Divorce hurts everyone.

If you have children and you want to end a marriage, you both owe it to the children to try again and harder before calling it quits.

Of course, I am excluding the situations where one spouse is abusing the other, in which case, divorce is the best option.

I have seen monumental, lifelong damage from a number of divorces.