My DD (2) and a dog question please ...

[doley]

I think I might be being unreasonable here ?

We went to visit a very good friend of mine for coffee ,she has a gorgeous Dachshund and I have a gorgeous 2 year old

The visit kicked off with her dog barking and barking ,and BARKING !
DD was terrified and screamed ,and screamed and SCREAMED !

This went on for a while till my friend suggested that all her dog needed was for me to greet him properly and he would then settle on the sofa .

So ,I did a big hello ,rubbed his tummy, the whole works ... showed DD the LOVELY DOG and he continued to yap at us .

It was difficult ,DD kept clinging to my leg ,dog kept sniffing round her ~she started screaming again and so on ...

I think at this point her dog should have either been put in the garden or behind a closed door( for a bit) to cool down .

I think I might be being unreasonable because he is a treasured member of her family ,he is a lovely dog he lives there and as his owner she didn't see the need .

But,it was just for a short visit ,a quick coffee and a chance to have a quick catch up .

Nobody could hear themselves think ,let alone speak !

I promise I will take advice

I have a small dog who gets excited when we have visitors, particularly children. She doesn't bark, but she runs about, wags her tail and is generally enthusiastic in her greeting.

If we have a visitor who is not fond of dogs, or I see that a child is frightened of dogs, then I sit down next to Daphne and make her sit with her back to the child. That way the child can stroke her without coming close to her face. I have found this the best way to help children get used to her.

We have a neighbour whose son is terrified of dogs, even fluffy little ones like Daphne. He crosses the street when I walk down the road with her. I always make sure that I put her on the lead and keep her away from him. We are planning to invite them over for drinks soon and I have already asked a friend to have Daphne for a couple of hours so that the boy can play in peace.

YANBU to expect that your friend puts the dog into a different room for a couple of hours.

Dogs like to siff things. Whippy pup met a baby for the very first time a few days ago. Her nose almost had to be surgically removed from the babies bottom

I probably would have pulled my dogs away, for their own sake, but I would have expected you to take your child to calm down. I wouldn't have locked them out for the duration of yoru visit. It's their home. Not yours.

It's interesting to note that there are a few posters who have "yappers" or boisterou dogs and who put them elsewhere when others visit. There's a pattern forming.

I have three large dogs. As you might have gathered, I don't put them elsewhere when people visit (the rare exception being my elder German Shepherd who is nervous of certain men so I occasionally do so for HIS benefit). All my dogs are absolutely fine with visitors and after an initial bark as someone enters may wander up to them to investigate them in silence but will then go and lie down calmly.

Why? Because they've been trained to accept visitors by being exposed to them, not by being banished from the room. They didn't come like that originally, one was a barker, another a bouncer and the third a bark and growler! It's only because they've been socialised that I have well behaved dogs. Banishing the dog may be punishing him akthough he doesn't understand what he's supposed to have done wrong but it sure as hell isn't changing the undesirable behaviour, it's merely reinforcing the need for it in his mind. Such is the path to a vicious circle and your dog, rather than being a part of your family, becoming an outcast and a problem every time a visitor steps foot over the threshold.

Likewise my children are pretty much unfazed by animals of any description and have been from a very early age because they too have been socialised with them and didn't have the creature of potential concern removed every time they encountered them and'/or made a fuss.

By removing the dog the owner is being foolish and will continue to have problems with him, by allowing a child to scream at a dog without removing her/stopping her merely because the (small) dog sniffed at her the OP is being foolish and exacerbating the problem. And, IMHO, wanting a dog removed from a room in his own house is unreasonable, asking for or demanding that a dog is banished from part of his own home is rude and in this house would be met with a very short answer.

Valhala - any advice on how to calm my very excitable greyhound when visitors come calling? She just wants to say hello and is very sweet, but is a big dog (especially if you're 6) and has a tail that feels like a riding crop when she catches you with it...

I can see both sides here. The dog needs training not to yap and bark at people like that, once they are in the house with the owners permission, but the child also needs to be trained not to be so scared of dogs. You dont want her to be running up to pet every dog, but a screaming child will also upset a dog too.

Stooge, dog friendly visitors are the answer Callisto! Get everyone who ivisits and who s remotely dog friendly to do the following:

1. Ignore all undesirable behaviours. Including eye contact and talking, completely blank her.

1. Be armed with high-value treats which you should keep by the door. Command her to lie down (cos Greys don't sit!) and ONLY THEN do you treat her and fuss her.

1. Turn their backs, arms folded pointedly on any bouncing or jumping-up. DO NOT reward it with attention whatsoever.

Be consistant... everyone has to do this when she bounces/jumps up, family as well as visitors.

Can't do much about the whippy tail I'm afraid. :)

NB - These are just tricks that worked for me and I've seen work for others. I'm NOT a trainer, I just own dogs and save 'em!

Thats what I am doing Val.

If he keeps barking, he is removed until he calms down. Then he returns.

He isnt half as yappy as he was.

I dont put him in the coal shed. He is just removed to a different place for a few minutes.
It works for us.

My dog used to be like that. She's a staffy so like a ten ton weight when she runs at you, tail wagging, tongue lolling out. However she learnt. There was the odd occasion where I would maybe shut her in the kitchen maybe if the visitor was only here for a couple of minutes. But if someone was staying for a drink then she would be allowed to greet.
She is still enthusiastic now but calms down a lots quicker and will sit down at visitors feet and send mind signals with her eyes asking for forbidden treats.

I'm not one for shutting dogs away but in this situation I would of because the barking and screaming would of gave me a headache!

Toddlers and dogs are unpredictable creatures. As the host I think I was up to your friend to make sure her "family member" would behave appropriately around the guest. How on earth can a 2 year old be expected to understand that if she stops screaming then the dog will stop barking? Leaving them together is more likely to give the poor girl a fear of all dogs. I think they need to be introduced in a more neutral environment ie the park.

I'm quite surprised at the number of people who think the dog comes before the toddler here.

Slightly different rationale there to the OP, TFMDV. Your dog is being removed temporarily at your own discretion and not at the request of another party and not because a child is being allowed to increase the problem by screaming at him.

For some, what you're doing works. Glad it does for you. Others, I have found, have experienced the opposite situation and have found that your choice of training method doesn't sink in with their dog but makes things worse.

As I said, I'm no trainer, I just love and save dogs.

When we got our staffy he was 9 months old, and an untrained bundle of enthusiasm. Visitors would get treated to his wall of death around the sofa and he would jump all over the place. He got put outside briefly into the garden every time, to calm down, and then allowed back in.

Before long, as soon as anyone knocked, he would go and sit in the back garden if the patio doors were open.. totally crap guard dog (like most staffies) but the perfect dog when people visit!

"Before long, as soon as anyone knocked, he would go and sit in the back garden if the patio doors were open... "

PMSL at the mental image of a Staffie meekly taking himself to the garden at the first ding of the doorbell! Bless! :o

I think a brief break would have probably done a lot to calm the situation Val. If done gently it could save a lot of problems later on.

I think the real problem is when people start hollaring at dogs to shut up etc. As toddler in this case was making lots of noise its not suprising dog was joining in.

My parents always had dogs. As soon as the door went they would start going mental (not my parents) and the 'shut up, stop it, be quiet' would start. The dogs thought it was fantastic that their favourite people were joining in with their barking

Very much agreed, TFMDV. To a dog, it's all barking and a signal that there is something going on which merits barking about.

Hence a request that the screaming child is calmed or removed until calm might have been a wiser move.

I'd have expected them to take the woofer out of the room. At 2 you can't easily reason toddlers out of anything - especially something that's freaked them out to the point of hysteria, (however benign it really is), so not surprised your DD continued to scream which I am sure was freaking the dog out too.

My near four year old still gets hysterical over hand blowers in toilets but now I can pretend they're silly elephants blowing their noses or whatever and so claw him off the ceiling more effectively.

Myself and DP have grown up with and have always had dogs of our own. We are dog lovers, and DD (nearly 3) has grown up with dogs, and isnt the slightest bit frightened of them. I think even she would have been terrified of a yappy dog that did not stop.

YADNBU - the dog should have been put in another room to calm down or outside for its own benefit, and perhaps a further meeting more planned to avoid what happened. A 2 year old cant be expected to rein in her fear, but a dog can be trained to stop making a nuisance of itself. Although with a dachshund you'll have hell of a job on your hands

TBH, I would have left.

It was obvious that "greeting" the dog didn´t work & that the owner wasn´t going to do anything else.

Can´t really see why you daughter couldn´t be calmed down, though, OP?

Didn´t she feel safe on your knee even, away fron the dog?

I do agree with you that the dog should be trained to leave the child alone and not to bark madly at the child. That is for the owner to do in future though.

Saying that, in this situation, I think that removing the dog for a few moments - as MrsD said - would have given both child and dog a moment to calm down.

I don't agree with shutting dogs out, Daphne is a part of our family, and should not be shut in a room. But if I know that the child visiting is terrified of dogs then I will arrange for Daphne to have a playdate :o with her sister.

I have s staffie if i dont put her away when strangers come in she parks herself firmly on their knee and wont move. This stems from my eldest daughter as they worship each other and i have allowed it as they have such a good bond.

Obviously strangers/some friends are not keen at having the big lump parked on them.

I have a friend who had her arm ripped to shreads and had to have plastic surgery after she looked after her friends staffie (dont think it really was a staffie) She still has her own who is 12 but is not not keen on other peoples. I am happy to lock her away if people are scared of her even though she is non aggressive.

I have 3 kids and i dont let her roam around freely when they have sleepovers etc as some of my dd's friend are scared of her. I had a fear of dogs when i was young due to the large packs which used to roam around in the 80's. and chase you.

2 is very young and i would have happily put my dogs away if it was distressing a child. The screaming could also stress the dog.

Greeting the dog was probably one of the worst things you could have been told to do OP, you're just reinforcing the bad behaviour - the dog got the attention it wanted with all that barking.

I don't really understand why the owner couldn't calm the dog down?

A friend of mine is a fantastic dog trainer and in this situation he would have told everyone to ignore the dog until it was exhibiting behaviour you wanted, i.e. sitting or lying down calmly, THEN you can go over to pat and stroke it.

I'm another one in the camp of not removing the dog from a situation its finding difficult to deal with. I think it's much better to teach the dog how to behave in certain situations rather than removing it from them and dealing with it on a later date. At least then the dog will know what's expected of it and not just that when something exciting happens it'll be removed to another place.

I have always had rescue german sheperd dogs. Always aquired as an older dog. I now have a 3 month old GS puppy (for the first time). She is great with other dogs that are about her size or if bigger as long as they are not 'all over her' (i am in the confidence building and socialisation stage). It makes sence to be nerious of a creature that is larger than you with much bigger teeth. If she is feeling insecure she makes noise as a toddler would do, common sense tells you (and ive seen it happen) that this can 'freak' a dog out if they are not used to noisy smaller animals. One or the other after a time span has to be removed until there is a level of calm again..

In the OP's situation i would have put the dog out within sight of the child and the two adults could have taken turns to go and stroke the 'lovely' dog. So the child sees that there is nothing to fear. Then build up to the child giving the dog a treat. You have no choice but to remove the dog in the case of a toddler that cannot be calmed but if future you would be prepared with a bone or such for the dog to ebjoy on its own.

OP YANBU.

Valhalla, I find your posts quite disconcerting. You describe a 2 year old as "hysterical" as if it's a bad thing. SHE IS 2 YEARS OLD ffs! Your children and animals had to be socialised but it's not the case for all children. Some children don't have a huge amount of contact with dogs and socialising them is not a basic requirement in child rearing.

The fact the dog owner has not trained her dog to be around kids properley is not the OP's problem. And if the dog owner hasn't trained her dog as such, then should do something else to rectify the situation like put the dog in another room.

Seeing as the situation did not calm down, I would have just left OP. Why be in a situation that is stressing your child out?

I know you are well respected on here Valhalla but "I just love and save dogs" sounds pretentious and twatty.

whethergirl-although i agree with some of what you say it is difficult to avoid dogs if you visit beaches, parks infact most places barring shopping centers and the likes of Alton towers so i think that all children do have to be socialised with dogs. To pass through most airports and some train stations you have to go within a certain distance of sniffer dogs and if anything this security will increase.

It's not the op's home though, it's the friends home. If the friend wants to have an untrained, excitable dog that is the friends right, so long as she coontrols it in public. The op is being unreasonable to expect to be able to demand that a dog is shut out of it's own home while she is visiting because her child is being hysterical.

Birds, I have two problems with what you've just said.

1. The dog was in his own home. Both dog and child were perceived to be making noise etc - so remove the child, not the dog just as you would take your child out/home if he were at a playdate and he and the resident child were causing problems... you wouldn't tell the householder to remove their child, would you?

1. Far more imprtantly... I have photos of m GSDs on my profile. YABU for not putting pictures of your own GSD on yours. :o

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"Vallhala...You describe a 2 year old as "hysterical" as if it's a bad thing."

Whether - so a hysterical child is a good thing?

Really?

To advocate as you do that the dog should be put in another room DOES NOTHING TO ASSIST IN THE TRAINING OF THE DOG WHICH YOU SAY IS SO NECESSARY but on the contrary can exacerbate the problem! Do you not see the contradiction in what you've said?

And re my comment which you consider "pretentious and twatty"... if you'd quoted it in context and correctly you would have seen that this was an admittance of the limit to my abilities and knowledge and was self depreciating. I actually said, "I'm no trainer I just love and save dogs".

All of which is true - no pretentiousness there.