to be utterly shocked at the attitudes to rape expressed on BBC 2 today?

[WriterofDreams]

Today, Jeremy Vine discussed the "slut walk" protests organised by feminist groups in response to the comment made by a Canadian police officer who told a group of lawyers that women should avoid dressing like sluts to help prevent rape. He spoke to the editor of "The F word" who unfortunately didn't give a very good argument IMO and failed to make the point that blaming the victim of any crime is just plain wrong. What really shocked me though were the views expressed by listeners which for the most part centred around the idea that scantily clad women are asking to be raped. One man actually said it was men's biological urge to have sex and women are exciting that by dressing like "sluts" and so they basically deserve what they get.

Frankly the whole thing made me sick. I was abused as a child so I know how much a victim tends to blame themselves for what happened. To tout this point of view is only to increase the suffering of victims IMO and does nothing to actually help decrease rape seeing as rape is very very rarely the "down a dark alley" scenario so beloved by many but is more often committed by friends, relatives and lovers who couldn't give a toss what their victim is wearing.

AIBU to think focusing on what women is wearing is basically blaming women for rape and in fact totally pointless anyway as there is no proof whatsoever that scantily clad women tend to get raped more often?

MoreBeta, if a man gets away with saying that all men have 'urges' and basically can't help themselves then yes, you and every other man out there is being called a rapist lacking only the opportunity. Because if all men have urges that can't be controlled then they are beasts. It is as important for men as it is for women to hear men speak out on this matter.

Quite agree Immaculada - the "Unclear Consent" rapists are usually unclear only from the jury's POV - because the rapist knows exactly who they have to target and what they have to say to minimise their chances of conviction.

But slavewife, where is the proof that wearing provocative clothing attracts rapists?

By my own ordeal of being a rape victim, he got a measly 3 year suspended sentence!!!!. (because it took 15 month to get to trial, and he was imprisoned in that time). Statistics might be one thing, but RL dictates otherwise.

My attacker, "choose" me because I was scantly clad, and giving him "vibes" by the way I was dressed. (all in the court documents) Hence why I state, you have a personal responsibility to yourself, against these mad men.

mathanziety - I'm sure that me, you, everyone on this thread and every half sensible adult out there knows men don't really have uncontrollable urges. In fact, I cant improve on what RobF said:

"What does this even mean? That men can't be expected to not rape attractive women who go out not wearing much? Or that men can't be expected to not be sexually attracted to attractive women who go out not wearing much?"

It really defies comment.

If a man's sexual desire is so uncontrollable that he just "can't help" raping women, that man is the one with the problem. Anyway, as has already been said here, rape is not about normal sexual desire; it's about using violence to control and harm others.

Slavewife, I am truly sorry to hear that you were raped, and how insulting that he received such a paltry sentence. Obviously I don't know the details of your case but I would argue that the rapist's 'justification' was a twisting of the truth - I'm sure that many men saw you dressed that way on that occasion, but only one man raped you. Why? Because he is the one with a problem, and he needs help with relating to women, himself and sexual behaviour in a normal and healthy way. What happened to you was HIS fault, not yours.

What Speedy said.

slavewife it was never your fault, no matter what clothes you were wearing when you were attacked. It really wasn't.
That myth is used all to often to get a rapist off in court (or in this case, get him a more lenient sentence). It sounds like this is what happened in your experience.

I'm so sorry you went through this. And indeed to the other posters who also suffered at the hands of sex attackers.

Please don't feel you were in any way responsible for what happened. Please.

speedy I have already said what you have said, and its also the reason why I do think woman should cover up, as there are mad men out their, that will pick their victim by their clothing and the perception they bring with their appearance. (he attacked another woman with similar clothing to myself) I tried not to bring my own experiences into the discussion, however I see I have failed to explain more coherently my opinion, without bringing mine into it, and its why I have the opinion I do.

I'm not blaming woman/men for the man/woman crimes, as by doing that I will then be blaming myself, and I don't. However I do still firmly believe that woman have a personal responsibility to how they are dressed.

I'm not the only one also, I went to a support group and met a few other victims, who we're also raped because of their clothing.
It wasn't the rapists justification, he liked the way his victims dressed.

But slavewife, do you think that if he was 'in the mood' to attack a woman and there were no scantily-clad women around, that he would just go home and watch TV? He is a sick bastard who does not know how to look at/ treat women normally.

I do sort of see what you're saying about clothing - and I am actually quite a modest dresser. But rapists rape because they are sick in the head. 'Normal' people do not commit rape. It's the same as when a parent whacks a tantrumming toddler - 'normal' parents do not do this, and when violent parents do, it's not the child's fault for inciting violence upon themselves.

Rape is the rapist's fault.

And you could have been wearing overalls and been attacked. Women should not have to cover up. There's an interesting parallel with sexual assault in Egypt, which has been a huge problem in recent years. The common perception, amongst both men and women, is that the majority of those attacked were dressed 'less modestly' ie had their hair uncovered or less traditional clothing. The authorities reaction is to tell women to dress more modestly to avoid assaults. In fact, it's a fallacy. Women who were dressed 'modestly' were as likely to be attacked.

i was raped at 15. i was not wearing provocative clothing. i was young and didn't know any better. i kept quiet for a whole year never telling anyone what had happened. i knew it wasn't right but blamed myself.

nearly 9 years later i still have not gotten over it. sometimes i can't even have sex with my husband. i have talked about it with professionals until blue in the face but nothing will ever fix it. i believe that they way rape is made out to be is why i didn't do anything. i thought i was the one who did something wrong, who had it coming to them. i wasn't the nice good girl attacked violently by a stranger so i therefore thought everyone would either judge me or not believe me. i now know better and it makes me sick to my stomach that that fucker has gone scott free because I was afraid to speak up out of fear of other people. Would i keep quiet if i had been mugged? No because when you are mugged you are innocent, even if your in a bikini down an alley at 3 in the morning on your own.

the whole biological urge is such a crock of shite. its the exact same load of shite that forces women to wear burkas. why should women suffer because of the weakness of men? if men are so flawed why don't they look at THEM not women? its not the womans fault because of her choice of clothing but the inability of men to not think with their dick, living in a world that adores men but treats women like objects. sure men don't have to sort out their own behaviour because its so much easier to blame women for their shortcomings. you hear it all the time, even in subtle ways like comedians blaming their wives for something or another. "oh the wife har har har" sort out your own fucking problems before using women as a scapegoat for your weakness.

that may be ranty but am upset now.

I agree with what you are saying, and No my rapist wouldn't rape anything in a bin bag, it wasn't his "style", he liked specific clothing, and its mostly what clantly clad woman wear.

I also know that "normal" men dont rape, but for me, HOW was I supposed to know what a normal man was, rapist was a stranger, I didn't know him, he raped me because of what I wore that night. hence why I think woman should protect themselves and be responsible to not put themselves in the spot light, by showing legs and tits!.

I understand that normal men would do this, but for me that night all men we're normal, I want to know my attacker wasn't normal within the crowds.

*wasn't to know

Didn't hear the debate (can't stand Jeremy Vine) but it sounds like callers were reflecting the common prejudice that sex crimes are motivated by a sex drive. Rape is an act of violence and control. Some people have a sex drive that gets off on violence and control and therefore are driven to rape but those people are not normal. They're criminals. I don't understand why people have such a hard time understanding that.

There is an argument to say that if you walk around scantily clad, you will attract unwanted and not always flattering attention from men but there's a huge difference between that and 'attracting' rapists. It's not possible to 'attract' a rapist - if a rapist wants to commit a violent crime like that, he will whether you're in flannel pyjamas asleep in bed or walking the streets at 2am in stilettos and a thigh-high skirt.

I personally choose to dress conservatively because, I don't welcome attention from men I don't know. That's my choice. Other women might not be bothered by attention or might even enjoy it but that doesn't mean that they are trying to 'attract' a rapist, obviously.

But slavewife what if a particular rapist has a thing for the colour orange? Does that mean that women have a responsibility not to wear that colour?
You weren't to know that being scantiliy clad would cause him to rape - there is no reason why it should - the vast majority of men can cope with a bit of leg and cleavage without raping someone.

you have your opinion and I have mine, my personal experience of this is a massively baring on my opinion, my attacker liked certain aspects of clothing, the cut, the short skits, the ankle showing etc... most women have this with being scantly clad, it wasn't a fetish of clothing, it was cuts of clothing etc...

M opinion stems from my own personal experience, doesn't make it wrong because I have this opinion. Its definitely not misconstrued either.

'my attacker liked certain aspects of clothing, the cut, the short skirts, the ankle showing etc...'

The key word in that is attacker. What you were wearing was not the reason you were raped. That man was the reason you were raped.

...but slavewife whatever the "norm" of dress, some poor woman or other will be more scantily dressed than the others eg if everyone took your advice and dressed more modestly, perhaps in burkas, then a woman in trousers but with no headscarf might be attacked because she was "provoking lust". Look at Lara Logan:

www.latimesblogs.latimes.com/showtracker/2011/05/lara-logan-breaks-her-silence-on-60-minutes-.html

Your attacker's lawyer was trying to scrape up a reason for the judge to be lenient. Normal men do not have uncontrollable urges to inflict themselves on women, no matter what the women are wearing.

There was a rapist around my part of London a few years back who attacked random women who were wearing leather - leather gloves, jackets or boots etc Does that mean that those women were at fault for exciting him by wearing leather??? Are we supposed to second guess exactly what clothing will excite every strange man we pass in the street?

YANBU

The onus should be on men not to rape. It's that fucking simple.

slavewife that may have been what was said in court but we don't even know if that was the genuine 'reason' or like others have said - the defendant and his legal team clutching at straws and playing on predjudices to try and get your attacker a lenient sentence.

Many women wear revealing clothing especially on nights out. Many men go on nights out. Relatively few women get raped. I would conclude from this that the reason is that a few men are disturbed rather than that there is anything about clothing (or lack of) that causes men to rape.

I don't think that anyone is trying to belittle your experience but I, personally, find it sad that you feel you should take ANY responsibilty whatsoever for being the victim of such a horrible crime.

^YANBU

The onus should be on men not to rape. It's that fucking simple.^

Agreed, in fact if I was a man I'd be really pissed off that it was being suggested that men are so out of control they can't physically help themselves when confronted by a woman in a short skirt/tight top.

It absolutely terrifies me that this isn't common sense. I listened to the Radio 2 show this afternoon and nearly pulled over in my car to phone in myself, the views Vine read out were absolutely disgusting.

SardineQueen I am only passing on something that a friend said to me. She does 99% of the court reporting when it comes to rape cases as they have found that the victims of rape find it easier to give evidence when there are more females in court.

My friend has talked to me about these rape cases and from what she has said it sounds like the majority of rape cases fall within the 3rd category. The third category is where it is a 'she said he said' case due the man saying he 'thought' there was consent. From the cases that my friend talks about the majority of these cases end up with the man being convicted and them going to jail.

bedlambeast I think her behaviour was totally unreasonable. If you don't want sex with a man (who she was not in a relationship with) then you don't go up to their hotel room and take off your underwear. While I don't disagree that she was raped I think her actions resulted in her putting herself into a risky situation. I have not slept with many men because I tend to say no right away. I would never say yes and then no. If I am not sure I say no. That way there is no confusion.

xkittyx Obviously getting into bed with your DH no matter what you are wearing does not give him carte blanche to have his way regardless of your wishes. They ran some adverts here a couple of years ago educating women on the importance of going to an emergency room right away if they are raped. My friend has said that after the campaign to raise awareness there was an increase in the number of cases going to court and many more convictions.

I will also add that what you are wearing is neither here no there. What a women is wearing is irrelevant. No means no and if a man doesn't respect that then he belongs in jail.

Want2b. I personally wouldn't think that saying no to sex at the last minute would put me in a 'risky situation' and I would be absolutely astounded if a man then tried to force himself on me - 99% of men would not do that imo. They might get in a huff but they wouldn't rape someone.

To all those saying on here that rape is not about sex, it is about dominance, I would like to ask: what is the evidence for that?

Thanks for any replies.