to be utterly shocked at the attitudes to rape expressed on BBC 2 today?

[WriterofDreams]

Today, Jeremy Vine discussed the "slut walk" protests organised by feminist groups in response to the comment made by a Canadian police officer who told a group of lawyers that women should avoid dressing like sluts to help prevent rape. He spoke to the editor of "The F word" who unfortunately didn't give a very good argument IMO and failed to make the point that blaming the victim of any crime is just plain wrong. What really shocked me though were the views expressed by listeners which for the most part centred around the idea that scantily clad women are asking to be raped. One man actually said it was men's biological urge to have sex and women are exciting that by dressing like "sluts" and so they basically deserve what they get.

Frankly the whole thing made me sick. I was abused as a child so I know how much a victim tends to blame themselves for what happened. To tout this point of view is only to increase the suffering of victims IMO and does nothing to actually help decrease rape seeing as rape is very very rarely the "down a dark alley" scenario so beloved by many but is more often committed by friends, relatives and lovers who couldn't give a toss what their victim is wearing.

AIBU to think focusing on what women is wearing is basically blaming women for rape and in fact totally pointless anyway as there is no proof whatsoever that scantily clad women tend to get raped more often?

RobF, would you be willing to challenge a man who was spouting the 'men can't help themselves' stuff? Would you call the radio and say that? It needs to be challenged by men, because no amount of complaining and challenging by women will make a difference until men get involved front and centre in the issue.

Naturally it's a good idea not to walk in "dangerous" areas strandedbear, but seeing as almost 100% of rapes occur indoors even that's not going to stop many rapes in real terms.

The reason women can talk til they're blue inthe face about it and still get nowhere is that the men who are more likely to be rapists have a habit of brushing off women and their concerns and opinions as if they were flies or other nuisances. They listen to men and their primary audience is men, whom they believe are all applauding them.

WriterofD, thanks.

Again, I'm not victim blaming. I was just wondering in the same way that I might wonder if some other external factor had an effect on who would be a victim of some other crime.

Second what Eversologam said - the victim blaming culture is sick

i do understand strandedbear's point, of course we should try to make sensible choices but I don't know how significant an impact these really have when it comes to rape?

there were a series of rapes in the area I live in 2009 and if i recall correctly they were women going about their usual work/shops/home type journeys not at particularly odd hours.

The way I see it is, rape is a personal attack carried out, in general, by people the victim knows. It would be comforting for us all if we could have a list of things that we could do to avoid being raped but the fact of the matter is that there is very very little we can do.

Focusing on a victim's clothes and saying that certain clothing invites rape is not only completely and utterly wrong but it is damaging in a very real and horrible way to those who have been raped. It also helps to perpetuate the idea that in some cases women have "asked for it" and must in some significant way be linked to the tendency for society to blame women for rape and to not believe them when they bring an allegation of rape to the police. We must challenge it, I feel, as it will bring us one small step closer to a society that just does not stand for any sexual violence against anyone, regardless of who they are or what they're wearing.

10 years ago i was mugged and beaten up by two men at 9am on a sunday morning walking through my local park in a very 'upmarket' area with ds1 in pram... i always remember the police saying i had been very lucky I hadn't been raped too... prior to that I'd spent 15 years feeling like I could walk anywhere late at night in London... ever since then I've known that no amount of sensible choices can necessarily protect you

A friend is a court reporter for the federal court in Mahattan. She covers a lot of rape cases and in her opinion rapes are in three categories:

1 - The psycho rapist - normally these men attack other men or females who are unable to defend themselves (the elderly and the young). They commit hideous sexual acts that no person in their right mind would ever agree to. These guys normally have a short case and spend the rest of their life in jail.

2 - The violent rapist - these men go after women who are aged between 15-45 and use violence to overcome the female. These guys are normally drug addicts and claim that the drugs made them do it. The evidence presented results in a clear conviction. These guys normally spend 20+ years in jail and the rest of their lives on the sex offenders register.

3 - The unclear consent rapist - these are men who think a girl who has given the green light but the girl hasn't. These are the cases that make the news because the evidence is so thin and it is up to the jury to decide. My friend said that it is often the result of a female not being in a fit state due to drink and/or drugs or consent being given and then withdrawn later. In my friends opinion, due to the ambiguity of the evidence, judges are relucatant to hand out a stiff sentance. These guys normally get 10 years at most.

A female is not asking to be raped by wearing a revealing outfit but they are asking for problems if they agree to sex and then withdraw this consent. A case in point was Mike Tyson. The girl went into his hotel room with him and took off her knickers herself. Sorry but in my eyes that is implied consent. To say no to sex after you have walked into a hotel room with a man and taken your knickers off is unreasonable in my opinon. Still he was sent to jail which was the right decision as she did not consent to sex.

i liked this TV campaign about this issue, but i think it was only shown in scotland.

ugh, i always balls up hyperlinking on here.

Fanks!

Writer thanks for starting this thread which has let me share this. I'm very sorry, too, for what you went through as a child. I had a pretty vile childhood as well, tbh, that has effected me much more than what I went through with my attack. I sometimes wonder if the former was what resigned me to (at the time) unquestioning acceptance of the outcome of the latter. Not a can of worms I'll open here, though!

Rape is about power not what women wear. Yanbu

But - if men are ringing in saying that it is a factor then that is very scary as some men obviously think some women 'ask for it' and unforunately dressing a certain way may provoke certain reactions however wrong that is.

YADNBU

The reasons why have all been covered.

I thought might offer the teeniest bit of hope...

It's the first time I've seen ten pieces of advice on avoiding rape that I've actually agreed with.

mathanxiety - I echo what RobF said. Men are not beasts that can't control themselves. However, I dont feel men are labelled as potential rapists either.

Jelly - I am a little surprised by the observations f yoru mother about the greater likelihood of acquital by fenale jurors than male jurors. Dees she have an explanation?

I have read that female jurors sometimes see the defendent in the dock and consider what they would do if it were their son, father, husband, brother in the dock. Male jurors I suspect probably look at the victim and think abut what they woudl feel if it were ther daughter, mother, wife, sister. I also suspect male jurors have a much clearer idea of what really goes through the mind of a man in any given situation and more inclined to be sceptical.

Want2bsupermum - sorry completely disagree with you.... I take my knickers off when I get into bed every night. That doesn't even give my husband the right to have sex with me against my will.
As to the rape trials you've described - that'd be extreme wishful thinking in the UK. A violent stranger rape may get some sort of (not very long) custodial sentence. And that's a big maybe. You'd be lucky to get as far as court with anything else :(

"I'm a man, and we do have urges. It's just that decent men have the sense of morality and the respect for women that prevents us from being rapists."

DH would say that he wouldn't want to rape someone because he wouldn't want to hurt or violate them. Not because his sense of propiety prevents him. He might have urges to have sex with people but he doesn't have urges to violently abuse them. They are different urges surely. And surely that is true of most men? Not that they want to but are stopped because they know it is immoral.

Unless I've misunderstood?

MoreBeta yes, it seems odd that many women are more inclined to blame a victim of rape than many men, but it's true and research bears this out.
It may well be for the reasons you suggest.

This claptrap drives me mad! Blaming the victim, not the criminal

want2b your categories are all wonky.

There is no room in your post whatsoever for a man who appears quite normal to deliberately rape. It's either violent drug addicts, total psychos CSI style, or nice normal men who got mixed messages and it was all a mistake.

This seems to dismiss the vast majority of rapes that happen (assailant known to victim) as grey area / the woman giving mixed messages. That's just not true. The vast majority of rapes the man knows damn well what he's doing.

SQ is quite right. Research suggests the majority of rapists are recidivists - they do it over and over again.

And the favourite MO of most of them is to get their victim drunk.

Mixed messages is a convenient and untrue excuse, that's all.