to be utterly shocked at the attitudes to rape expressed on BBC 2 today?

[WriterofDreams]

Today, Jeremy Vine discussed the "slut walk" protests organised by feminist groups in response to the comment made by a Canadian police officer who told a group of lawyers that women should avoid dressing like sluts to help prevent rape. He spoke to the editor of "The F word" who unfortunately didn't give a very good argument IMO and failed to make the point that blaming the victim of any crime is just plain wrong. What really shocked me though were the views expressed by listeners which for the most part centred around the idea that scantily clad women are asking to be raped. One man actually said it was men's biological urge to have sex and women are exciting that by dressing like "sluts" and so they basically deserve what they get.

Frankly the whole thing made me sick. I was abused as a child so I know how much a victim tends to blame themselves for what happened. To tout this point of view is only to increase the suffering of victims IMO and does nothing to actually help decrease rape seeing as rape is very very rarely the "down a dark alley" scenario so beloved by many but is more often committed by friends, relatives and lovers who couldn't give a toss what their victim is wearing.

AIBU to think focusing on what women is wearing is basically blaming women for rape and in fact totally pointless anyway as there is no proof whatsoever that scantily clad women tend to get raped more often?

[slavewife]

Im not comparing them at all, the act of rape and the women's clothing are two different things, Im saying that woman must take personal responsibility for themselves, I know I am telling my nieces that they are not going dressed out like that, as its inappropriate (why do we tell our children to dress down, and not want them to be having unwanted attention from either sexes) My Dad done it with me, as did my mums dad etc.. as are my cousins parents etc...etc... I'm saying what meditirina is saying.

No one is blaming the person for the act at all, just that they do need to take responsibility on how the want to be perceived while out in public, even if that's if people are saying, "shes well up for it", "Gawd look at the peck on that" etc... yes all these are wrong, but how many of us have done it???

a very good male friend of mine was raped by two woman, all because he wore his top off, and had tight fitting trousers on, hes not that "rare" either

[RoseC]

"No one is blaming the person for the act at all, just that they do need to take responsibility on how the want to be perceived while out in public..."

But there's a difference between 'dressing to attract' and 'dressing to attract rape'. I don't think any woman does the latter and I think the majority of men can look at a woman dressed to attract and think she's attractive without tagging 'rapeworthy' on the end. The blame should always lie with the rapist's perception of the victim and the former's actions.

[WriterofDreams]

I agree Rose.

[Frizzbonce]

According to the Rape Crisis Centre, 98% of victims know their attacker personally. So reports of rape shot up in the early nineties because marital rape was made a crime in 1991 I think. Presumably more women reported being raped because they thought they might stand more chance of being believed. We now have an actual conviction rate of about 5%.

So you are far more likely to be attacked by someone who has seen you in all modes of dress if this is what the argument is about. As RamblingRosa pointed out, rape has nothing to do with sexual urges, it's about power and control. And statistically it means there are a lot of unconvicted rapists out there. But you only have to look at the kinds of views that crop up on Commentisfree at The Guardian to realise that.

One other thing. A man was raped in a Croydon car park in 2009 in the early hours of the morning. Quite rightly, nobody blamed the victim for wearing provocative clothing or hanging around a carpark at 3am. Would the same compassion be afforded if the victim was female? I doubt it.

[Moulesfrites]

I heard this too and it made me so angry I could barely eat my lunch, especially the man who said men can't be expected to control their "basic biological urges"! WTF?

[RobF]

"I could barely eat my lunch, especially the man who said men can't be expected to control their "basic biological urges"! WTF?"

What does this even mean? That men can't be expected to not rape attractive women who go out not wearing much? Or that men can't be expected to not be sexually attracted to attractive women who go out not wearing much?

[mrsravelstein]

i found myself shouting at the radio a bit too.

[mrsravelstein]

it's also fairly disparaging to men to suggest that provocative clothing is all it takes to turn them into rapists.

[slavewife]

"But there's a difference between 'dressing to attract' and 'dressing to attract rape'. I don't think any woman does the latter and I think the majority of men can look at a woman dressed to attract and think she's attractive without tagging 'rapeworthy' on the end. The blame should always lie with the rapist's perception of the victim and the former's actions"

Yes I agree, and haven't said otherwise. there are sick men out their that will think "Im having her" whether she likes it or not, and we should protect ourselves from this type. hence why I dont think woman should be going out bare dressed, which will attract this type of men.

Majority of rapists will rape a woman never the less, if they are wearing a bin bag or a thong, however I believe they will be attracted/seek-ed out more, because they stand out more to them. For me id rather be covered up, and not stand out.

[WriterofDreams]

Agree Mrsravelstein. The idea that wearing provocative clothes has any part to play in rape is a pretty stupid one when you think about it. It implies that if a rapist goes out one night and only sees unattractive women dressed modestly he'll just shrug sadly to himself and go home. What utter nonsense!

[slavewife]

sorry, or a man, either sexes are victims of rape, sexual assault.

[WriterofDreams]

But slavewife, where is the proof that wearing provocative clothing attracts rapists? As Frizzbonce points out, an absolutely huge percentage of victims, 98%, know their attacker. So clearly clothing isn't involved 98% of the time. I think that it's likely that in the othe 2% of cases clothing plays little or no part either. Why make such a big deal of clothing when clearly it plays such a tiny role in the crime?

[TheNumberTaker]

YANBU, Writer , it's utterly amazing to me that the "blame the victim" mentality still exists.

About 13 years ago I lived in a very nice part of London, where, apparently, "this type of thing" - assault, rape etc, doesn't happen....according to the policeman who attended my call. I had walked home from the tube and been followed. He had then pushed his way into the lobby of my block of flats as I went in, pinned me up against a wall and tried to force his hands into my clothing. I'm not sure what would have happened if I hadn't gone bananas and used my umbrella to fight him off. I managed to leg it up the stairs.

Later, the policeman took one look at what I was wearing - a fairly modest work dress - and declared that my assailant probably just fancied me because I was wearing "a short skirt" and probably didn't mean any harm. Except that I'd walked home wearing an ankle length buttoned up winter coat, and unless attacker had x ray vision he'd have had no idea what I was wearing. And that's the nub of your argument, rapists/sex attackers don't care about what you're wearing or anything else about you. You are just a thing for them to have power over. Taking the position that women could somehow prevent the actions of these "men" just gives them more power.

What about male rape victims? How many of them have been accused of provoking an attack because of what they are wearing?

[saffy85]

YANBU. I didn't hear the debate but can imagine how it went. No one "asks for it" to suggest they do is insulting and basically excuses the rapist for their actions which isn't right.

I do however believe in being responsible for your own safety but by that I mean not taking unnecessary risks like accepting drinks off strangers in clubs, walking home alone at 3am and not abandoning your mate if you cop off with someone.

Not opting out of wearing a short skirt so that some poor, would sex attacker doesn't have the urge to rape you. I was once told by a friend who is a police officer that rape isn't about sex per se, it's about overpowering someone. So the length of the victim's skirt is really a non-issue surely?

[northernrock]

Some rapist are opportunists who use the fact that a woman is drunk in the back of a cab for example as an opportunity to sexually assualt her.

This does mean that your chances of being assaulted while drunk are higher than while sober, so you probably shouldnt get really really drunk.

However, a normal non rapist man would not dream of sexually assualting a woman, drunk or not, so the blame lies firmly with the rapist, obviously.

Incidentally, you are also more likely to be raped if you are wearing your hair in a ponytail. This does not mean that wearing your hair in a ponytail incites rape, only that a ponytail happens to be handy for a man who is intent on rape to grab you by as you walk home in the dark.

[MoreBeta]

YANBU at all.

I didnt listen to the programme but readng the comments here and drawing on random comments of friends and family over the years it seems to me that there is almost always a massive 'car crash' of two totally unrelated issues that arise whenever this issue is discussed.

The first issue is of rape itself which is a crime of violence, dominaton and power usually commited by men against women. The second issue is of normal sexual attraction that men feel when they see a women and especially one that is wearing relatively light, figure hugging or revealing clothing.

For the vast majority of 'normal' heterosexual men (and women) their only experience is of conventional sexual attraction and consensual sexual relationships. Men know what it feels like to look at a woman and the powerful feelings that can evoke and let's be candid most women know how to dress to get male attention. All of this occurs within the bounds of normal civilised human behaviour and is comon ground to most heterosexual people of either sex. it is our shared adult experience.

Conversely, the vast majority of people have no experience of rape at all, either as victim or perpetrator, so from a position of personal ignorance our society (both men and women) generally equates the normal power feelings of sexual attraction which men have when they see a woman's body with the motivation to rape. They are clearly not the same thing at all but society constantly conflates normal sexual attraction and rape because the physical act that is the end result of both is fundamentally the same at the most basic level.

The whole debate then descends quickly into focussing on what women wear and how they act because that clearly influences how men are sexually attracted to women even though in actual fact it has got nothing to do with rape at all.

The only caveat or comment I would put on the debate about the way women dress is that, in general, I often see women dressing less formally than they should in a professional situation and that they should be more mindful of the image they are presenting. An office is not a night club.

Other than that, society clearly needs to be better and more properly informed about what rape is and that should start in schools.

[WriterofDreams]

That sounds so frightening numbertaker :( I can't believe the police officer said that to you! Were you able to challenge him?

[WriterofDreams]

Very well said MoreBeta.

[ElephantsAndMiasmas]

This is such crap, rapey men will rape whoever they think they can get away with raping. So factors might include:

• the victim looking vulnerable, e.g. elderly, very young or incapacitated
  

• a victim who can be discredited, so someone who will be disbelieved because they are very young/mentally ill/have SEN
  

• a victim who will be disbelieved due to rape myths, e.g. someone the rapist already knows, someone they are friends with or have had sex with in the past, or a prostitute, or even someone who's just had several previous sexual partners, or what about someone who was wearing a short skirt?
  

By subscribing to the idea that men rape because they are lustful beasts who can't help it, and that women can PREVENT rape by dressing/behaving differently, you are actually making things easier for rapists. Rapists know how people think, they know that people will ask "was she sure?" or "why was she out?" or "what was she wearing" in order to give the perpetrator an "out".

So anyone who thinks like that, IMO, should consider how they are making the world less safe for women, by providing rapists with the assurance that their victims will be blamed.

[DilysPrice]

There is actually a campaign on the tubes at the moment called "Real Men Know The Difference" (between getting it on and get off me etc). Very refreshing.

Mind you the more I hear about rape cases the more I suspect that it's mostly not about "normal" men not knowing right from wrong, but a few predatory total bastards who know exactly what they're doing but rape again and again whilst deliberately blurring the lines to pretend it was an honest mistake. That's just my impression though - often when you get a conviction for "date rape" loads of women suddenly appear to say that he'd done it to them too.

That's why women should take care of themselves, because there are some real scum out there, and going somewhere alone with a man who might possibly be one of them and/or letting yourself become helpless with alcohol is an unwise risk, just like getting into a stranger's car. Doesn't make the criminal any less guilty though, and what you're wearing has sod all to do with it unless it stops you running away.

[WriterofDreams]

Totally agree Elephants. The idea that a victim could somehow have prevented her attack by dressing more modestly is absolutely not helpful to anyone. I know from bitter personal experience that victims of personal attacks tend to blame themselves anyway, no matter what the circumstances, so having a general accepted "truth" that dressing a certain way can lead to rape is only going to make them feel worse, especially if they did happen to be dressed in revealing clothing.

To be fair I think a lot of decent well meaning people want to believe the myth because the alternative idea - that you might be a victim no matter how careful you are - is a very hard one to face. It's nice to be able to reassure yourself that you don't dress like a "slut" and therefore you're less at risk. It's just not the case.

[JellyBeansOnToast]

This breaks my heart. At my (extremely well-renowned, full of academic potential and full of the kind of people who are going to go on to run the country) university yesterday, two friends reacted to my incredulity and disgust at the comments made by the Toronto policeman with 'yes, but you are more likely to get raped if you wear a short skirt.' Ironically, they all go out in short skirts and heels and drink. But as they don't define themselves as 'sluts' they don't see it as pertinent.

Rape is not about lust. It is not about sexual desire. It is not about 'fancying someone and getting carried away.' It is about control, domination and power. Women get raped wearing pyjamas, tracksuits, dresses, burqas...it's completely irrelevant. By saying it's down to what a woman wears is simply saying that the woman is in some way to blame and a perpetrator rather than an absolute victim. It's putting responsibility of the crime onto their shoulders. It takes the blame away from men and makes it seem that some circumstances are acceptable and conducive to rape. No means NO.

Interestingly, my mother is a rape lawyer. She says that if a jury is made up of a majority of women, they will generally acquit. Men will convict. Women are doing a hell of a lot of damage by perpetuating this myth and blaming the women.

We shouldn't be teaching women not to dress how they want, we should be teaching men that no means no. Doesn't matter if she's drunk, high, naked, has slept with you before, is your wife or girlfriend. ARGH. Rant over. I have rarely been this angry.

[JellyBeansOnToast]

Oh and there are absolutely no statistics or evidence which support the claim of it being more likely to occur when a woman is dressed 'provocatively.'

[VajazzHands]

YANBU if that was the general message- I did not hear it.

I think "reclaiming the word slut" is a load of shit though. You can't claim a word that is only used as offensive and horrible and make it OK. Deep down it always has the same connatation. People have attempted to reclaim the word nigger for years.. but it will always be a hateful word used to keep people down.

I never said cunt before I moved to the UK where I lived it was just never used. Disapointed in myself because I use it frequently now since living in the UK where its gets used often. I haven't reclaimed the word.. it is still used by assholes to describe women in the worst way they can.

Ayway not really on topic now am I?