to be utterly shocked at the attitudes to rape expressed on BBC 2 today?

[WriterofDreams]

Today, Jeremy Vine discussed the "slut walk" protests organised by feminist groups in response to the comment made by a Canadian police officer who told a group of lawyers that women should avoid dressing like sluts to help prevent rape. He spoke to the editor of "The F word" who unfortunately didn't give a very good argument IMO and failed to make the point that blaming the victim of any crime is just plain wrong. What really shocked me though were the views expressed by listeners which for the most part centred around the idea that scantily clad women are asking to be raped. One man actually said it was men's biological urge to have sex and women are exciting that by dressing like "sluts" and so they basically deserve what they get.

Frankly the whole thing made me sick. I was abused as a child so I know how much a victim tends to blame themselves for what happened. To tout this point of view is only to increase the suffering of victims IMO and does nothing to actually help decrease rape seeing as rape is very very rarely the "down a dark alley" scenario so beloved by many but is more often committed by friends, relatives and lovers who couldn't give a toss what their victim is wearing.

AIBU to think focusing on what women is wearing is basically blaming women for rape and in fact totally pointless anyway as there is no proof whatsoever that scantily clad women tend to get raped more often?

[SardineQueen]

YANBU it sounds appalling. Just so sad to see that vast numbers of people still believe this shit. Hanging around in the feminism section here can make me forget that these attitudes are so common, it's always a shock to be reminded.

[PlanetEarth]

Quite agree - and it got me wondering, does wearing skimpy clothes actually make you any likelier to get raped? Anyone know? After all, there are 80 year old grannies raped in their beds, they're hardly wearing provocative clothing now are they? Rape is more about the rapist than the victim, so do the clothes affect their choice of victim or their desire to rape?

[VajazzHands]

I suspect in some cases where it is a stranger/oppertunist rapist they might see the skimpier clothes and feel it would be "easier" and quicker than if they had to take off 5 layers of clothing. I doubt/hope there aren't statistics kept on what the victim is wearing :(

I do think the average sleazeball (not a rapist just an asshole iyswim)will treat women differenlty based on clothes.

[TheNumberTaker]

Writer, I did challenge the policeman once I'd picked my jaw off the floor. My flatmate and the other (younger) policeman who attended were equally shocked. It made no difference, the police were not interested and I moved away. Cut to 2 years later and this bloke had attacked another woman in a similar way to me, although again the police just took no notice. It wasn't until an off duty policewoman was attacked that they started investigating and linked up our 3 incident reports. I was amazed to get a call out of the blue, the police had tracked me down through a professional register. The three of us were put through a pretty harrowing trial, and interestingly, the policewoman was the one in complete pieces over it, she said her colleagues had been really unsupportive (found this out post trial when we got together and recounted our respective experiences of it all). He was found not guilty, there were (technical, legal) problems with the evidence and the judge said certain stuff had to be ignored, but not sure if it was that alone or the jury not believing us that resulted in this verdict. I was told later he'd already had a conviction for a sex attack prior to my attack.

Jelly I remember during my evidence glancing at one woman on the jury a lot because she looked really cynical. I remember thinking at the time, "you just don't believe me, do you."

Anyway, none of that adds anything to the debate, sorry to go on. I've never really talked about it, I think I feel a bit guilty because he didn't get convicted and is out there somewhere, but a lot of anger because I felt really disenfranchised from the whole investigation/court process, that it actually happened to me was a mere detail, all I was was a witness, the crime was against the state and the state completely fucked up investigating this one. I still get heart lurches when I see a similar looking man. Anyway, I really have gone off topic now, sorry!

[aliceliddell]

Jelly & Writer - interesting points re people accepting the myths bcause the alternative (it could be you) is too horrible. Hence the massive reaction you get if you say "all men are potential rapists". Obviously true if you're a woman because we can't mind read.

[VajazzHands]

If 3 women (one being a police officer ) can't get a conviction it doesn't bode well for the average victim does it?

thenumbertaker I'm so sorry you went through all of that

[nailak]

its ridiculous imo,
a man who is normal wont rape a women if she is wearin a bikini or walkin around totally naked,

a rapist will look for opportunity first, and that may include easy to remove clothes, a woman alone in a dark alley etc, but i have read the majority of rapes are by people known to the victim in a private not public place.

and this is comin from a woman who covers.

[YouMakeMeWannaLaLa]

I heard this today; I was fuming at all the victim blaming and was really frustrated that the woman being interviewed did such a poor job of putting her point across.

That man saying men could not control their biological urges really fucked me off; I know that if my DH came across an attractive, scantily clad drunk woman, he would NOT rape her. Anyone who would is a RAPIST, not a victim of his own biology, and should be treated as such.

Still not sure about the word 'slut' though. I understand why it's being reclaimed but labelling yourself or other women 'sluts' makes promiscuity and revealing clothing a whole identity whereas it's just a small part of some peoples' lives. I'm not making much sense! Remove the word 'slut' and I'm 100% on board; call it the 'MenDon'tRapeUsWeAreExercisingOurRightToWearWhateverTheHellWeLikeForWhateverReasonWeLike Walk' and I'm there!

[KvetaBarry]

Well, I was wearing pyjamas and a sleeping bag when I was raped. not attractive to anyone. And I'm fairly sure that most rape victims are not assaulted by strangers, or that most are fairly ordinary looking.

so to suggest that rape victims are targeted because of what they look like and what they are wearing is bollocks.

[MintyMoo]

YANBU

When I was 15 a man I worked with attacked me, I very luckily managed to get away (I was at work and he was disturbed trying to drag me in to the toilets having pinned me to the wall and touched me up and kissed me).

I was blamed by my colleagues for wearing a skirt, the skirt was actually my knee length school skirt and I only wore it because my Boss told me I wasn't allowed to wear trousers to work. My colleague's said I was asking for it as I used to talk to them (they were all male) - of course I did - I was a waitress, my job was to go to the kitchen and give them the orders I'd taken so they could cook the food!!!

My parents didn't let me go to the police as they were concerned I would be blamed in court. I was even asked what I'd done to encourage him :( - he'd slapped my bum earlier that day, and grabbed my boobs but I didn't know what to do about it (I have SN and struggle socially, plus I was technically still a child) so I just said 'don't do that' and walked away.

After it happened I ran to a friend of mine's place of work down the street. Turned out the friend was a married drug dealer (did not know that at the time) which is why my parents didn't report it. They were scared because I was white, and hanging out with an Asian man who dealt drugs the courts would accuse me of being a slut and that the court case would upset me.

Still makes me mad :(

[bibbitybobbityhat]

Yanbu but ime the people who call in to Jeremy Vine are the self same types who read the Daily Mail. I don't think they are representative of the country as a whole.

[FreudianSlipper]

i was shouting at my radio and astounded by the amount of callers saying women should be more responsible


the whole programme was very interesting today and very emotive (later talked about the brixton, moss side riots)

[TheNumberTaker]

Vajjazzhands , thanks.

KvetaBarry and MintyMoo, so sorry you went through this.

[springpiece]

YANBU. Normal people don't rape women and wouldn't if they were walking down the street naked.

[CFAW]

Rape is not about sex. I don't understand why people don't get that, especially people talking about rape on a public platform (news ect).

Rape doesn't happen because a man really fancies someone and cant control someone, its about power and dominance.

[RobF]

"Yanbu but ime the people who call in to Jeremy Vine are the self same types who read the Daily Mail. I don't think they are representative of the country as a whole."
tbh, Daily Mail readers are probably more representative of the country as a whole than Mumsnet forummers.

[mathanxiety]

I don't know why men put up with the sort of 'men have urges' drivel. Do they not understand what is being said about them? Do they not understand the implications? They are basically being told they are all potential rapists and that is not being challenged by them. Does that matter to decent men?

[WriterofDreams]

Really sorry to hear about everyone's bad experiences :(

For some reason people seem desperate to blame the victims of sexual violence, much more so than victims of other crimes. I was abused as a child and one fuckwit of a therapist suggested that part of the reason it happened was because I was "too trusting." I mean WTF??? Who in their right minds tries to blame a child for abuse? And to say I was "too trusting" of an adult friend of my mother is just ridiculous - of course I trusted him, so did my mother for the love of God!

Your story is really awful numbertaker, thanks for sharing it with us. It strikes me as absolutely mad that a convicted sex offender got away with three more attacks before he was brought to trial and even then he wasn't convicted again Why oh why are people so reluctant to believe women who have been sexually assaulted?

[CFAW]

mathanxiety, Pisses my oh off!

[RobF]

"I don't know why men put up with the sort of 'men have urges' drivel. Do they not understand what is being said about them? Do they not understand the implications? They are basically being told they are all potential rapists and that is not being challenged by them. Does that matter to decent men?"

I'm a man, and we do have urges. It's just that decent men have the sense of morality and the respect for women that prevents us from being rapists. Some men do not have these qualities.

[DaisyLovesMetronidazole]

OP, YANBU.

All the same, I would like to know the statistics behind it.

If it indeed is the case that people are more statistically likely to be raped when wearing revealing clothing, then I'd prefer to be informed (although I doubt that this is the case).

I'm not for a minute claiming that victims are in any way at fault.

[WriterofDreams]

Well Daisy, according to the Rape Crisis Centre, 98% of rapes are carried out by people the victim knows, so of course in those cases clothing has no bearing whatsoever. I don't know about the other 2% but I seriously doubt clothing had anything at all to do with it. Even if it did, surely there's very little point putting such emphasis on it when it has such a small bearing?

[CFAW]

Daisey, i believe most rapes are carried out within a home environment.

[EverSoLagom]

OP, YANBU.

This culture of blaming the victim makes me sick.