to think that actually, this is a form of financial abuse?

[prettymuchapixiegirl]

My friend is married and has 3 children, aged 9, 3 and a newborn baby. She hasn't worked since she had the 3 year old.

Her DH works full time, in a minimum wage job, and so they qualify for housing benefit, a small amount of council tax benefit, the usual tax credits and of course Child benefit.

Her DH says that, as he works and she doesn't, all the money is his, and everything is paid into one account, for which only he has access. He gives her a (small) amount each week for food shopping and if she needs money for anything else, such as taking the 2 youngest to toddler group, she has to ask him for money. Sometimes he says yes, sometimes no. He also logs all mileage on their car and checks when she's been out somewhere that she has only done the mileage she should have done and hasn't been anywhere else "wasting petrol".

She asked me my opinion and I said that in my opinion they are a family unit and as such all money coming into their house is theirs. Not his. And especially not money given to them by the state, for the children. He has earnt his wages, fair enough (although IMO they're not his and his alone) but the benefits are for the whole family. I wouldn't say that the children go without, but they have bags of handmedown clothes from me and from other people, and they don't get to do a lot of things such as have days out or even go to soft play or anything like that. My friend has no idea how much money they have in the bank as her husband won't tell her.

I have suggested to her that she sets up a bank account of her own and contacts tax credits and child benefit to get them paid into that account, although I'm unsure about whether they'd do that without her husband's agreement too. She would get a job but obviously she has a newborn baby and also she hasn't got any qualifications so chances are she would end up in a minimum wage job and pay all her wages on childcare. Her husband works shifts so she can't take an evening or weekend job, and she feels totally stuck.

OP- Does he pay all the bills out of the money he's keeping? Or does he have nice things, nights out e.t.c

I work nearly full time, minimum wage and we get all of the above Tax credits e.t.c Which get paid to me, because DP doesn't have a bank account because of bad debts in the past and he is also a gambling addict and a former drug addict.

On a good week, I'll maybe be able to give him £10 pocket money, but most weeks I can't give him any, because there's none left over once the necessities are paid.

Up until last year, he was on Incapacity Benefit, due to his past problems (the drugs, and the lasting effect they have on his body, despite being 'clean' for nearly three years.). However, that ATOS pricks declared him fit for work, and our income dropped by £106.20 a week, he can't get CB JSA, because he was on IB for so long, he doesn't meet the qualifying years for NI contributions. He doesn't qualify for IB JSA either because I earn too much.

He is trying to find a part time job that he could manage, I have set hours so something in the evening i.e cleaning offices, but he's had no luck so far.

Prior to his IB being stopped we had roughly £40pw each 'pocket money' and were able to take DS out, have the odd night out e.t.c, however we can't even buy him a sweet after school now.

My wages cover Rent, Council Tax, fares to work, phone and emergencies that crop up. WTC covers Gas, Electric, TV Licence. I keep past the CB to cover DS clothes, school trips, Christmas and birthday e.tc, however most weeks we need to 'dip' into it. The CTC covers the food shop, however as I said before some weeks the shopping is less, and there is maybe enough left over for DP and I to have a small amount of 'pocket money', although more weeks than not, there's nothing left over, and I can't give him anything.

To the outside, our situation probably looks like I'm keeping money from him. His BIL invited him to his birthday piss up a few weeks ago, obviously DP had to turn him down, cue SIL on the phone saying I should be handing over the CB and CTC because 'it's rightfully his' as I work and he stays at home. That may be how the government intended that money to be, however if I was to hand that money over to him DS would have no clothes, school trips, Christmas and birthday presents and none of us would have any food.

i think there could be more to this and wouldn't jump so far as saying its abuse. they sound like the money is tight so he is probably doing all he can to keep them afloat. maybe she has previously been stupid with money and he has taken control to make sure bills are paid. i see nothing wrong with asking for money when your budget is that tight even pence may tip the balance. I don't let DH have the card to the bank account. he is stupid and has many times in the past lifted a tenner here and there thinking it won't hurt but it does and did. two months in a row we did not have enough for the mortgage, only by about 40 quid or so but that's a big fat default on our credit files.

if he earnt loads of money or she did and he took control of her wages too then it could be wrong, but he could just be struggling and maybe just not going the right way about it. its not abuse if all he is trying to do is make sure the bills are paid and they have a house. i'd be with him with wasting petrol. its a source of major argument in our house as to how DH can do the exact same journey but use twice as much petrol as I could. petrol is very expensive esp when you are living off a minimum wage job with a family to support. my child were charity shops clothes, we don't have many expensive days out. we cannot afford them and DH earns more than minimum wage. perhaps you and possibly your friend don't realise how difficult it is to make ends meet on minimum wage. if there is no money there is no money. minimum wage + benefits will be enough to pay bills and that's about it. the tax and credits and CB are going to the children as he is using them to pay for their home food electric and heating. as i said before he may not be going about it the right way but i would not be so quick to judge.

also i hate the fact that if it was the situation i described and a woman took control of the finances it would be all good for her taking control etc. man does it he's an emotionally abusive controlling bastard.

maighdlin, couldn't disagree more with your two posts.

EITHER a husband or a wife exhibiting this type of behaviour would be bad.

you have completely missed the point of the OP. it's controlling and abusive behaviour.

It's definitely not right that she doesn't know whether she'll be able to take the children to the local toddler group without his say-so.
But, depending what the rest of the relationship is like, just a little more financial autonomy for her could dramatically improve the situation - hence my suggestion regarding the child benefit.

He's using money to control his partner, checking up on her to see exactly where she's been while he's not around and his children are going without and are suffering because of this. No one should be controlled like this.

The OP has said her friend has no idea what their finances are like as presumably she doesn't get to see any bank statements or have a bank card. She has no money AT ALL not even CB unless he decides to give her some.

I often roll my eyes when the "leave the bastard brigade" start their chant but seriously I couldn't live like this.

I was thinking along similar lines to PintOfStellaAndBuckfastChaser. Minimum wage jobs don't go that far if you have 3 kids to look after. It could well be there isn't any spare money for her to spend on days out with the kids.

IMO what she needs to do is sit down and work out what the finances are and get a handle on them herself. TBH I think most households will have one person who does the bill paying stuff and the other one is less aware of the finances. If he doesn't let her do that, that's an issue. But it sounds mostly like she has no idea how much money is coming in or where it goes, so it's definitely a joint issue rather than just him being controlling.

Northerngirl, it isn't a joint issue. She isn't allowed access to the account or to statements. He won't let her.

Maigdhlin, I don't really see how you can draw the conclusion that I don't know how hard it is to make ends meet on minimum wage, given that I haven't said anything about my own personal finances on here. The minimum hourly rate isn't the only income they have coming into their home; there's also tax credits, child benefits, and they are having a portion of their rent and council tax paid also. They don't have a car and her DH walks to work so no expenses there. I have 3 children and know that child benefit is £180 per 4 weeks, she says their tax credits are about £140 per week. Surely there is some extra money there so that she can occasionally buy some clothes from Primark for her children, or pay £1 to go to toddler group?

Of course it's financial abuse...

Thing is, your friend needs to find her power to deal with it, why is she letting him control her access etc. Only she can change the status quo, not to accept "he wont let her"...

You sound like a good friend, have any more you can rally around to help out? the more people on her side, the more she will realise it's not normal.

Sadly, she sounds worn down (which is what these men do, it's very insiduous).

prettymuchapixiegirl - it is a joint issue, since it doesn't sound like she's tried that hard to find out where the money goes or understand what's going on with it and just accepts that there isn't any money spare.

She could easily find out how much money they are getting in benefits, and how much their gas/electric etc is plus know how much she spends on food each week and what the rent/council tax etc is for their property - she just choses not to. She doesn't even need access to "his" account to find that out.

She also doesn't need his permission to open her own bank account (post office is vg for people without any credit history) and start saving money herself or discussing with him getting the housekeeping/child benefit paid into there and then being wholly responsible for that budget.

She sounds a lot like she's been sticking her head in the sand and expecting him to make all the books balance - I'm not surprised he hasn't been more proactive about letting her have free reign over the money if she truly has no idea how much money they have when they are on a tight budget. She needs to prove she understands the situation properly first.

Northerngirl, how do you know that she doesn't know how much they get in benefits each week or that she chooses not to? You seem to be reading an awful lot into my posts that I haven't written. She knows exactly how much she spends on food as she is given an amount by him each week to spend on food. She has no idea of what they're bank balance is (ie what he is withdrawing/spending from it) as like I've said twice before on this thread, he won't allow her to access the account or see the statements.

How you can conclude from this that she's sticking her head in the sand I really don't know. Why should she have to prove that she understands the situation properly before she can be allowed to access the finances? A marriage or relationship is an equal partnership and my friend is not a child who has to earn privileges.

I don't wish to get into an argument with you but I am finding your attitude very strange and your views very obtuse.

oh god i have a mate like this :(

yes, is a form of financial abuse. well just, abuse full stop IMO. how dare he. wtf is wrong with these fuckwits.

Does she want to be treated like a child? She should get shot ASAP!

I don't get any of this.

Why would you " let" someone do this to you? Why would you not say, " Let me see our accounts please, I need to know how much money we have " and when he says, " No " you say, " Stop being a fuckwit and give me a bank card and equal access to our money or you'll sleep on the sofa/cook your own tea/wash your own pants/live somewhere else ".

I mean, that's where it starts, surely? You start as you mean to go on and accept zero shit form the outset.

prettymuch in your OP you say "He also logs all mileage on their car and checks when she's been out somewhere that she has only done the mileage she should have done and hasn't been anywhere else 'wasting petrol'."

But in your Sun 08-May-11 18:02:48 post "They don't have a car and her DH walks to work so no expenses there."

That jumped out at me too SuchProspects. along with you...

Whaddayaknow - is completely right.

The money belongs to both of them - he earns it whilst she takes care of the kids.

She needs to STOP letting him push her around with it.

No need to walk out on him yet - just orientate him to reality.

prettymuchapixiegirl, I've had some training in Domestic Abuse, and financial abuse is a recognised form of Domestic Abuse - it is likely that it goes hand in hand with other forms of abuse, but sometimes more obvious forms of abuse don't come up unless and until the victim tries to get some control over the finances. Your friend needs to get some good advice from a Domestic Abuse helpline - the Womens' Aid one is here: www.womensaid.org.uk/default.asp They will be just as happy to talk to you if you want to call them for advice.

Whaddyouknow I understand why you take the position you do - Domestic Abuse is really hard to understand from the outside, and I think a lot of people (especially young ones) can't understand why women don't leave. I don't have space to go into all the reasons here, but the main one is that the absolutely most dangerous time in any abusive relationship is when the woman tries to leave. Most abused women know full well that at that point they move from an abuse victim to a potential murder victim. And the threat doesn't go away. Even if they manage to sneak out to a refuge and have lots of help to make a new life, they are still always looking over their shoulder, and some women are found and killed years after the event. We've all seen those stories on the news where a respectable family are found dead in their house and police 'aren't looking for anyone else'. 9 times out of 10 that's an abuse victim trying to leave.

It's important that we talk about it, whatever our beliefs, though, because research shows that the number of young women (16-21) who think it's okay for a guy to 'get physical' if he thinks she is being disrespectful is going up. Way up. We need to learn what the signs are before the abuse happens (frequently he's the absolute charmer) and we need to educate our daughters about healthy relationships.

O.K. Lecture over. Sorry to go on

Liska - great post.

I always wonder HOW it gets that bad, at what point to you say, " yes, this is abusive" and how do we get women to leave long before then?

Liska, I understand what you are saying and it is skary, I would love to offer safe haven to these women and I will soon. xx

I don't know - I'd rather give the OP's friend some credit here before we assume she's the helpless victim of domestic abuse and that there's no hope.

Maybe she just needs to BELIEVE that the money is equally hers - and when she does she can turn this around and fight her corner. I understand that early in a relationship men can assume that what they earn belongs to them. It's an immature perspective, and the woman has to put him right on this - the sooner the better.

I would be interested to know how things were before she gave up work.

Lots of people live in these his money, my money type relationships and while I certainly do think this man sounds controlling I wonder whether he feels the pressure of being the only breadwinner on a minimum wage with three children and is going about it the wrong way.

There are plenty of people on mn who have their own bank accounts and who wouldn't allow their dh's to see their bank statements, not because they're financial abusers but because they believe what they earn is theirs and that as long as they contribute to the bills etc the rest is their to do with as they see fit. The difference here is that he is earning and she isn't.

Not every control freak is a murderer, and while I do agree that to condemn women for staying in abusive relationships is never black and white, I also think that to justify their staying by saying that to leave would put them in more danger just enables the abuse to continue and enables these women to justify staying in abusive relationships.

There are no justifications to stay with an abuser. Yes there are reasons why women stay and these should be recognised, but anyone who is being abused should be encourated to take control now.

It isn't a form of, it is financial abuse IMO.

DH and I both get tax credits. Child TC and Child Benefit to my account and WTC to his along with what he earns. Yes we have an account each but really that's just for practical purposes. I pay some bills and he pays others. They are interchangeable really and we both know what we have between us and what is going out at any given time. Hell, DH doesn't even bother taking his cash-card to work all week in case I need to use it for the needs of our family.

Not that I am slating people who do keep their finances separate. That can work perfectly well too.

Sadly, my parents always did and now my Mum is deeply in the throes of sudden-onset dementia and my Dad is having to try to support them both on one pension. She never knows when money is going in and is constantly losing her card to machines / having it cancelled due to not being able to remember the number. Or she assumes that she has no money at all even when she hasn't been to the shops for weeks.

I've tried to advise and help but my Dad won't have any of it. He should at least be claiming for the 24-hour care he is giving my Mum, which she needs but no, he considers all that to be part of the marriage vows he took fifty years ago. Despite having worked from the age of fifteen to sixty five with barely a week off and no periods of unemployment.

I'm very concerned for the OP's friend not least because of the entitlement to a basic state pension that she may be missing out on and also because of the type of man she is with. I had one of those in my life for a short while and it wasn't good.