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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to wonder why on earth so many people are going to vote no?

215 replies

nightowlmostly · 04/05/2011 20:40

I just don't get the apathy with regard to this referendum tomorrow.

In what circumstances would you ever reject the opportunity to have a second choice option?

"Ok, if I can't have that one, I'd like this one instead."

What is it that people don't like about that? I am honestly baffled. Obviously, PR would be a better option, but we've got to take what we can get when it comes to reforming the voting system, this will just be a small step. If the no vote wins, we will never get another opportunity to vote for change.

If you are voting no, I would genuinely like to know your reasons why!

OP posts:
MackerelOfFact · 05/05/2011 11:48

I will be voting yes. I don't think it's a fix-all solution, but I like that I will be able to vote for small parties (Greens, etc) as my preferred votes for the first time in my life, with my usual main party/tactical vote (Labour) somewhere further down. That way, I'm giving the small parties the best chance possible, while making sure that my usual vote will still count if it doesn't happen for the smaller parties.

Party politics have been a pantomime for far too long - I am interested to see whether this will bring about more harmony between parties, with them highlighting their similarities rather than just their differences, to gain people's 2nd votes. It might bring a few egos down a peg or two too since it'll no longer about being number one, it'll be about being somewhere on a sliding scale.

knittedbreast · 05/05/2011 11:51

av will not cost the millions extra the tories are saying it will. they are lying.

they lie alot!

carminaburana · 05/05/2011 11:52

Reasons why I voted NO to AV.

If AV goes through it's more power for the Liberals ( they're a lot of people's 2nd choice party, which is why they're desperate for the AV system )

That's it really.

IntergalacticHussy · 05/05/2011 11:55

carminaburana, i don't think they're most people's second choice nowadays! would have been true at the last election but i can't see it ever being true again. Do you prefer the tories? cos FPTP is their ticket to govern us again and again and again...

Welshexpat · 05/05/2011 11:55

If you want honest politicians the only way to vote isto vote NO.

Why? Because in difficult situations, as we have now, tough decisions need to be made and its best if politicians during an election spell this out as the conservatives did before the last election.

If we have AV politicians will always have to moderate their positions to appeal to voters who will give them a second preference. AV encourages candidates to lie, to win the votes of the majority who unfortunately in Britain believe that everyone else owes them a living.

Just look at the people supporting the YES side, a collection of indecisive politicians unable to win an outright majority if they tried, Clegg, Milliband, Harman, Yvette Balls etc. They are supporting the YES campaign solely out of self interest.

DartsRus · 05/05/2011 11:57

sue52 we have never had a vote on the EU. I assume you are referring to the referendum held about 35 odd years ago about entry to what was then the Common Market? Which was being touted as simply a trading grouping? At the time most people did not realise that voting yes would lead to political union. My mum still regrets voting yes.

DrNortherner · 05/05/2011 11:59

Because, if people are staunch supporters of one political party they do not have a 2nd choice.

I support the party I choose to whole heartedly. I don't have a 2nd choice. I don't think 'oh, if these don't win, then I wouldn't mind xxxx'

If my party of choice is beaten, I want them to be beaten with a majority by an opposition party fairly and squarely. Not as a result of picking up second and third option votes behind a loser.

OTheHugeManatee · 05/05/2011 12:06

AV is the system that voted Ed Miliband in as leader of the Labour Party, over his infinitely more competent brother. While that's been useful in the sense that it's left the coalition a bit of breathing space without any credible opposition, it doesn't inspire me with confidence in the AV system as such.

carminaburana · 05/05/2011 12:07

A labour voter will put the Liberals in 2nd - ( they're not going to put the Tories in 2nd are they ) UKIP could do well under AV as a lot of Tories will put them 2nd with Liberals in 3rd - I know UKIP are in favour of AV.

BecauseImWorthIt · 05/05/2011 12:11

OTHM - but that result reflected people preferences.

Paul88 · 05/05/2011 12:26

thai - yes in your example it is likely that the Tories would win under both systems.

However if even Tory+UKIP+BNP did not reach the 50% mark, labour would be redistributed. If enough of them go to LD then LD could overtake the tories.

So it might not stop your constituency being a safe tory seat, but it might make it a bit less safe - so the MP might try harder.

This seems to be the main argument of the YES campaign - shame really as the most telling argument is just that it is fairer.

Nobody has suggested buying machines to count the votes - it would certainly be cheaper to count by hand; in many constituencies a second count wouldn;t even be required and it is not a second count of all votes, just of the smaller parties. I would guess an increase of about 20% in the cost of the count, which is probably a pretty small part of the cost of running the whole election.

ChippingIn · 05/05/2011 12:26

Someone up the thread posted this (sorry to pick on you!!)

I was getting really confused with all the arguments for and against AV. But now I will be voting Yes. Someone explained today that in the current FPTP system someone can win by having 35% of the votes but that is surely wrong because it means that 65% of the voters do not want that person to win. That really made sense to me

Honestly, it's people being misled like this, that is making a lot (not all, but a lot) of people vote 'yes'.

65% of the voters may not have wanted that person to win, but they wanted several other parties to win - only one of those parties will win.

So

Fred - 35%
George - 20%
John - 15%
Barney - 15%
Gordon - 10%
Bil - 5%

Fred wins over George by a reasonable %

But after several more rounds the smaller players are out and somewhere down the list George is one higher than Fred - he gets the vote. The voter doesn't actually want him, they just don't want Fred a little more....

So in the end George wins. How can this be right? He has 15% less 'real' votes. If people wanted George they should have voted for George. Now the 35% of voters who wanted Fred are being sidelined for people who actually wanted one of the other men - NOT Fred!

How can anyone think that 'yes' is a good idea?

FPTP has it's issues and I'm up for debate and reform, but to a better system, now a worse one!

MMP in NZ is good

If AV was good other countries would be using it. Having lived over there I know it's unpopular (I didn't need the NO campaign to tell me so). There aren't for a very good reason - it's crap!

Paul88 · 05/05/2011 12:30

George wins because if he went head to head with Fred he would win. That is the whole point. Why should Fred win just because some other blokes stood and split the vote?

This is a great example of why AV is fairer, thanks :)

(shouldn't we have women in examples given that this is mumsnet?)

mayorquimby · 05/05/2011 12:35

How is voting no 'apathy'?

For what it's worth, being from a country with PRSTV I'd much rather a first past the post system

mayorquimby · 05/05/2011 12:39

Oh and I'd ike Frances two round system best if given the chance.
You get a chance to vote 'purely' (for want of a better term) which allows a true representation of where fringe parties are, people don't feel forced to vote tactically from the off or that a vote for a smaller party is a wasted vote as many do in a FPTP system etc. but you still may vote tactically if there is no outright winner (+50%) in the first round.

carminaburana · 05/05/2011 12:40

Chippingin;

Yes, 65% of people didn't want Fred as their 1st choice MP - but maybe 55% of people put George as 2nd choice so will at least feel better represented having him as their MP - they don't hate him afterall or they wouldn't have put him 2nd

ChippingIn · 05/05/2011 12:41

Paul88 that's not true. You have no idea who would win if they went head to head because you have no idea if people only chose minor parties and no other votes. You have no idea how many people bothered to rank all of the candidates. All you know is that out of the people that ranked them one more voted for George than Fred

ChippingIn · 05/05/2011 12:46

Carmina - he could have been their 5th choice! I'd much rather have someone who was the FIRST choice of 35% than the who wins due to being the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th option.

But as I said - MMP is a much better system and if we want reform we should be pushing for a GOOD system, not AV.

cleanandclothed · 05/05/2011 12:50

I am voting no because a) I don't think second preferences should count as much as first preferences (OK, they don't if there is an outright winner, but they will quite a lot of the time) and b) I certainly don't think some 2nd preferences should count and not others.

I agree with Chipping In - I would rather have someone who the most people thought was the best rather than the majority thought was the least worst.

Clytaemnestra · 05/05/2011 12:52

So AV appears to deliver the same result as if you had FPTP, but everyone voted for the candidate they least wanted instead of the candidate that they did.

I don't think that's a good recommedation really.

carminaburana · 05/05/2011 13:08

Chippingin: I doubt many 5th choice candidates will win anything ;- apart from naff all ( which is why the BNP don't want AV )

I personally think voting should be compulsory - that way FPTP is fine isn't it.

thaigreencurry · 05/05/2011 13:26

Hmm I'm still not convinced either way so I don't think I will be voting. I don't like FPTP but this doesn't seem to offer a fairer alternative either.

luvvinlife · 05/05/2011 13:27

I shall be voting no.

AV is a total waste of time and money and potentially damaging.

The fact that outfits like the BNP will get knocked out first round means that their voters 2nd preferences will then count, and that will be for the next most extreme right/left wing party that when added up could well knock out a smaller party etc..etc. It is possible for them to manupulate the system by using 'sacrificial' candidates.

Voting no is the only sane thing to do as AV is not real PR, its useless.

thaigreencurry · 05/05/2011 13:33

Is it just proposed that AV is used in general elections or would it apply to local elections as well?

It could make a difference to the outcome in local elections round here as there are often some good indie candidates worth considering.

RumourOfAHurricane · 05/05/2011 13:36

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