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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to wonder why on earth so many people are going to vote no?

215 replies

nightowlmostly · 04/05/2011 20:40

I just don't get the apathy with regard to this referendum tomorrow.

In what circumstances would you ever reject the opportunity to have a second choice option?

"Ok, if I can't have that one, I'd like this one instead."

What is it that people don't like about that? I am honestly baffled. Obviously, PR would be a better option, but we've got to take what we can get when it comes to reforming the voting system, this will just be a small step. If the no vote wins, we will never get another opportunity to vote for change.

If you are voting no, I would genuinely like to know your reasons why!

OP posts:
WalterFlipschicks · 05/05/2011 09:37

jenny60 no we don't and it's a shame, everyone should vote, it takes two minutes. At least if everyone voted, it would be a truer reflection of what people wanted.
extendeds I'm not voting NO because 'some old etonian and the BNP tell me to' I know neither of those people! I am voting no because it's my choice and thats what a vote is all about??
raiseaneyebrow agreed re order of pref, peoples beliefs and voting choices are the same, they would just choose the parties that 1: they agreed with totally 2: agreed with mostly 3: agreed with a few things

We could all end up with the majority of peoples third choice... how is that fair?
If AV was used, we would all be pushed into voting for someone we otherwise wouldn't vote for, with a real possibility they could win, even at 2nd or 3rd choice.

HarrietJones · 05/05/2011 09:45

But yes means agreeing with Clegg, you can't use personalities as a guide in this which is making it more difficult

SherlockMoans · 05/05/2011 09:50

I didnt understand it but I saw Lembit Opik explain it on the Wright Stuff using apples - it isnt rocket science!

But to be honest I am still undecided - I cant get past the fact that WITH av we would probably still have a Labour government destroying our country (just my opinion obviously I dont want to get into a bunfight on that one!)

QueenofDreams · 05/05/2011 09:52

And that's what's wrong with politics today, it's too much about personalities and looking good and not enough about policies. I'm not going to vote for an electoral system that will impact the political future of this country purely based on whether I LIKE a politician or not!

gawdblimey · 05/05/2011 09:55

Why would you vote yes, when that means agreeing with Clegg, Miliband and Caroline Lucas?

SexyDomesticatedDab · 05/05/2011 10:00

Want one vote to the person I'm voting for - always been like that and prefer it that way.

Why is the AV vote first past post - surely there should be a 2nd choice on the form ;-O

exoticfruits · 05/05/2011 10:15

I'm even more keen to go and vote no today after this thread, due to the sanctimonious opinions that I'm too stupid to understand AV as if I did I would agree with it. Honestly it's not complicated, but I don't agree with it.

Hear, hear!! I was going to vote NO anyway, having read all about it and made up my own mind, BUT those 'know it alls' who patronisingly think that I am too thick to understand have made me really keen to get off and vote NO now. Well done all those 'yes' people who want to change us all-you are doing an utterly fantastic job for the No VOTE-keep up the good work!

(from one too thick to make the 'right' conclusions Grin

GandTiceandaslice · 05/05/2011 10:18

Because it's our democratic right to vote what we like! Wink
I'm voting NO.
And I have read lots about it & am fully informed.
As for the local elections, I am cross with the present one & the other one I "liked" & know quite well doesn't want to do what I want.
So I'm not sure there...

Liby · 05/05/2011 10:26

I'm voting YES.

There are a number of reasons not to, but there are a whole plethora of reasons that you should vote affirmative.

First off, David Cameron himself admitted that the electral system as it currently stands is broken. Additionally, Labour, the LDs and Tories all use AV to elect their own leadership. Why should that privilege not be extended to us, the voting public?

Third, as for "No" claims that only 3 countries use AV and one of those wants to change (AUstralia) is misleading in the extreme. THere are almost ZERO indications that Australia is contemplating moving back to a FPTP system. Sure, a few cases loudly compain about it, but onlybecause they lose out in the current system. Most Australians are happy with their system. The other aspect of this is that only ONE country on the entire planet uses FPTP to elect 100% of their legislature. Us.
So if the "No" camp want to imply that for some reason being in a small group is a bad thing then surely being the only one is even worse?

So why AV? Well, there's the rub. AV is a pretty bad system. It is better than FPTP (more on that later) but nowhere near as representative as the STV or other methods. But AV is the system to which our political masters decided to present to us.

So why vote YES on a system that is a "miserble little compromise"? Because this referendum (the second ever) is ALREADY being marketed as vote on the status quo vs change. If we object, both Labour and Tories will forever be able to point to this and say " no, the public do not want change. We and they are happy with the current system."

So don't vote no in thehope of holding out for something better. Because if you do, I can promise you this will be the only chance you get in the next 50 years (if not more) of changing the political system.

Next, the difficulty of AV. AV is not a complicated system. It is certainly lss confused than, say, buying car insurance, or programming a TV. You rank candidates in order of preference from 1 to whatever. I say whatever because you can stop at 1 if you like, or you may rank all parties. And that is that.

There is a highly, HIGHLY patronising section of the media and the "no" camp that likes to paint AV as too complicated for us "the public". It is likened to them saying "I understand this system, but you won't, so don't worry your little heads about it and let us get on with running things and telling you how to think"*

So why is FPTP unfair? Inherently the FPTP penalises any race where more than 2 candidates run. And the constitutency system exaggerates this. UKIP (I can't stand them, but the make a good example) polled 1,000,000 votes across the country in the last election, but did not get a single MP. That is not a fringe party! It grossly unfair. The LDs, for better or worse, got 20% of the votes but fewer than 10% of MPs. How is this fair or representative? I don't need to to trot out the old stat of how many votes it took to elect an MP from each of the main parties, but it still stands. It will also get rid of cynical tactical voting.

To those who argue that AV elects 2nd or 3rd place candidates, that is a crock of rubbish. WHat it does elect is people with a majority of votes. As it stands, we get a system where a Tory government ends up in government when a MAJORITY of the population actively DISLIKE them. So we have a minority imposing their will on most of the population. AV will elect people who are preferred by a majority, not simply "the most" in a one round, simplistic, unfair voting.

More to come, but I'm off to vote (funnily enough) YES!

*quote courtesy of Marcus Bridgestoke

exoticfruits · 05/05/2011 10:33

I wouldn't dream of changing your mind Liby-I would do you the courtesy of assuming that you are a reasonably intelligent adult who has weighed it all up. The fact that you have come to an entirely different conclusion to me doesn't make you thick and in need of 'educating in the right way'!!!

(It is like anything on MN-people decide for themselves and all parents! Weird!!)

olderandwider · 05/05/2011 10:34

I am voting no because it seems very important to be able to vote out an incumbent MP. FPTP means people who genuinely want change have a straightforward choice - vote for the other party - even if that means voting tactically (as has certainly happened in my marginal constituency). Sometimes you want someone to lose, rather than another person to win, and that is best served through FPTP.

AV makes it harder to get rid of an MP as they pick up votes from people who have put them as second choice.

Also, it just feels wrong that a candidate who is more people's second choice should beat someone who managed to garner the most first choice votes.

WalterFlipschicks · 05/05/2011 10:57

exoticfruits and whoever you quoted above, couldn't agree more... I have read all the information available and I choose to vote NO, not because I am unable to understand AV, just because thats what I believe!

51wksApart · 05/05/2011 11:02

Again, probably reposting things, but I have already voted no. I do not want a computer being responsible for counting my votes which is what would happen with AV. Look what happened with Bush/Gore (and I've read the Aachen memorandum!). You can fiddle computers - you can't fiddle a lot of people counting as easily. As it says above - I don't want more peoples second choice counting more than slightly fewer peoples second choice. Look at the tactical voting that goes on in Australia. Political parties issuing lists of how to order the remaining candidates so that theirs has the best chance. In that situation - the second choices will also be messed up and won't actually reflect a true second choice, merely the second choice that you think will be least damaging to the chances of your first choice. Not the way to run anything.

thaigreencurry · 05/05/2011 11:03

I still can't make my mind up.

I don't usually have any second preferences. Perphaps in the past, LD would have got my second vote but not now.

If I'm honest I'm still a little confused by the whole process so may refrain from voting.

51wksApart · 05/05/2011 11:03

oops - more peoples second choice counting more than slightly fewer peoples first choice

grovel · 05/05/2011 11:08

I will be voting no. I take my lead from Etonians whenever possible.

thaigreencurry · 05/05/2011 11:17

I am being really thick here so please be patient with me.

In my area the usual outcome is like this:

1st Tory
2nd LD
3rd Labour
4th UKIP
5th BNP

Therefore in the unlikely event that Tory fail to get 50% of the vote BNP are eliminated and the second preferences of BNP voters are counted. They are likely to be for UKIP then they get eliminated and the next preferences are counted, likely to be Tory. So by voting yes in my area you are giving extra votes to the Tories. Or am I being even thicker than I think I'm being?

Quenelle · 05/05/2011 11:19

I will be voting yes.

Paul88 and working9while5 have given good arguments IMO.

Unfortunately people's opinions of the Lib Dems and Nick Clegg seem to be dictating how many vote.

dreamingofsun · 05/05/2011 11:26

thai - thats how i understand it. but if in your example, the BNp voters had LD as their second choice the LD's could be elected. This would obviously be as a result of some people's second choices and this is one of the things that i think is wrong. I prefer a system that reflects people's first choice

Quenelle · 05/05/2011 11:28

"and the second preferences of BNP voters are counted. They are likely to be for UKIP then they get eliminated and the next preferences are counted, likely to be Tory"

Is this true? There are Labour voters who would also vote BNP aren't there?

ExitPursuedByALamb · 05/05/2011 11:38

If the vote was for PR, then I would vote yes. AV is just a fudge imo so I will be voting No, and yes, I fully understand the issues.

What I would really have liked was a referendum on the EU......

jenny60 · 05/05/2011 11:40

Liby: nicely put, though no will win I think.

I don't want to patronise anyone but I would say that anyone seriously voting on the basis of personalities on either side really is a bit thick, especially given that both sides are composed of people from the left and right.

IntergalacticHussy · 05/05/2011 11:41

OK, FPTP does not guarantee that the person with the 'most' votes wins the seat, because the winner may only have say, 20 % of votes counted, leaving a whopping 80% majority who did not vote for that candidate. So most people in that constituency are not being represented, and their voices are not heard. Much fairer to have AV where no-one wins outright in the first round unless they get more than 50% of total votes.

sue52 · 05/05/2011 11:44

I am still not sure which way to vote. PR would have been a better way to go. Exit there was a vote on the EU way back in the 70s.

IntergalacticHussy · 05/05/2011 11:45

Exit - how do you think PR will ever be achieved if even the watered down (AV) version is unpalatable? It's like someone saying 'I don't want that cheque for £10,000, i'm holding out on winning a million thanks very much.'