To resent having to pretend I don't have a child when around a certain old friend?

[jeckadeck]

Old, very dear, childless friend hates listening to people talk about babies. To the point of neurosis -- she tunes out any reference to kids at all and makes ostentatious claims to anyone who will listen about how bored she is by it all. Don't really know whether she hates children, is envious or is just bored by the conversation, suspect a combination of all three. Up to a point I sympathize, there's nothing duller than being sat in a room full of young mothers banging on about the contents of their offspring's nappies if you don't have kids yourself and if you can't have kids it can be quite painful. I have a 12-week old baby and I try my hardest to be sympathetic and not to talk endlessly about my kid when I'm out with her or other childless friends. But she recently said she'd love to get me and another mum friend out for a night out "on condition that you don't talk about your children." I just think that while its one thing to expect that we don't go on about them all night, she can't expect us not to discuss our children at all. But am I being unreasonable? and if not, how do I get this across to her without hurting her? We've had this out in the past when I was pregnant and she temporarily seemed to get better but apparently is now back to insisting that any reference to children be erased from our friendship.

She sounds delightful

Are there a couple of options?

(a) Meet up with other mum first so that you can catch up about kids - let other friend know you're meeting for drinks early to do all the kids chat first (if she feels left out that's her doing)

(b) Can you make it into an annoying (and admittedly facetious) joke whereby you refer to your home as your workplace and your daughter as the boss and chat about everything as if it were office politics

(c) interrupt v sweetly when she drones on about her amazing creative job that EVERYONE is interested in, and say Gosh I've never even met these people and I feel like I've been practically living with them for the past x years - do you mind if we talk about something else - it's so nice not to have to think about work at the moment I don't even want to have to think about any kind of work at the moment even someone else's- has anyone seen X film/ooh have you seen new apprentice candidates/am reading an amazing book atm?

(d) introduce her to one of the lovely vitriolic childfree forums so she can witter on about her job and childfree status to her heart's content

She sounds a twat btw - I have a number of childless edging towards 40 female friends not yet in a relationship and they have been absolutely lovely towards my son (16 months) and I have made sure I have been better than when I was childless about nice birthday and christmas gifts for them because I have appreciated not only the lovely gifts they frequently buy him (he is doing v well from one particular friend's business trips to NY and Paris) but the interest and time they have taken, even when I know it must sometimes be tough because they would like children of their own. One particularly thoughtful friend is an only child and has never been around small children for any length of time and I've seen a really lovely and surprising side to her around my son.

I have as many friends without children as with children. They all take an interest in my children because they are interested in me and my life, and what I care about, as their friend.

It is not possible to be a true friend, and at the same time ignore one aspect of the friends life. If it was so repulsive that they could not abide the topic, they should not be friends.

I actually have ONE friend who has moved on from our friendship because I had a child. He warned me beforehand. He said, just so you know, I have broken contact with every female friend the moment she gives birth. True to his word, he turned his back on a friendship that had lasted since we were young teens, been flatmates, best friends, and moved to London from frigging Norway together.

So, I suggest you move on from this friendship, as it is not natural to ignore one such major aspect of a friends life, and expect the friend not to mention it, or be so rude as to make it obvious how much the aspect bores her. Move on. She is not worth it. If she was a true friend, she would be delighted for you.

x-post

OP, you can't seriously be surprised that your friend isn't enthralled by a discussion of 'feeding logistics'

Some people just can't pretend to be interested in things that bore them. Was your friend like that pre-baby? Maybe she doesn't realise that it's more hurtful when it's a baby, not work or whatever.

I think the friend is being very selfish. If I was told that I would ask the friend not to talk about her career.

There may well be quite a lot of pain there - I do tend to avoid situations where I know babytalk will dominate (always joyous when you work in a heavily female dominated industry), however I smile sweetly and tune things out discreetly - thankfully being the faceless supply you can be deeply deeply engrossed in a text message/game of solitaire on your phone quite legitimately (generally before vanishing to the loos for a quick cry - there are a LOT of ladies out there doing a lot of sobbing in staff loos btw). I don't demand people don't talk about things, however I'd expect some consideration and some subjects that mean stuff to me as well - otherwise you feel just utterly fucking pointless for the evening.

I also appreciate people who are considerate and forewarn me that X is bringing their new baby around, and allow me to discreetly not be there unless I feel up to coping - different to being obnoxious about it, but protecting my own feelings and mental wellbeing.

To be honest if I was her I'd be avoiding the social gathering - I wouldn't be being an obnoxious twerp about it, but I'd be expecting a bit of acceptance that I wasn't attending because it hurt.

I think a friendship where you can't talk about anything that's happened in your day to day life (and let's face it, if you have a 12 week old child -assuming no paid help - then your child is your whole life), then they aren't really a friend - you're stuck with having the sort of superficial conversations you have with your hairdresser.

Your life has changed, forcing you to pretend it hasn't so she doesn't feel uncomfortable (for what ever reason she has a problem with children), isn't fair on you.

In the short term, I'd cut her out of your life - give yourself 6 months where you only surround yourself with supportive people, they don't have to be 'baby-centric' but people you can relax around, not feel you have to pretend to be something you're not anymore.

It happened to me too.

Best, best friend. She was late 30's and single when I had ds. We would meet up and he would be there and she would just TUNE OUT if I so much as mentioned him even in his presence. She talked a lot about how irritating it was that people felt the need to respond to their child's coos when they didn't understand them anyway. She was highly riled when I had to feed him for 40 mins in the M and S loo (as she had made clear she would stand up and walk out if I bf'd in the cafe ).

She would never say his name, ask about him etc. I didn't speak about him because she would become all unresponsive.

I knew it was because it was hard for her as she would have liked a child of her own but there was only so much I could take and so the friendship cooled and cooled very fast.

Recently it's been better - she will mention him when we meet now but we can't meet with him present as she has NO tolerance of any pit-stops or any of the normal everyday "pandering" he needs (e.g. food, to get out of the pushchair from time to time, nappy changes, a bit of human contact and stimulation.

I would say we are now acquaintances who sometimes have a drink but are no longer friends.

thanks all... is reassuring to know that other people also think this is slightly odd as I find it quite upsetting to be ordered around like this. I have considered the possibility that she is like this because she finds it really painful (and I've actually suggested to her that if this is the case she might want to come clean about it rather than pretending she just finds it all really boring). And I am totally happy not to drone on about my baby all night. But I do think laying down the law about what you can and can't talk about with a friend is not cool.

Her argument is that her career (which is in the creative arts) is intrinsically interesting to all while children are only interesting as a topic to other parents.

She does have a point.

I have to say, I can't bear parents going on and on about their children, how bright they are, the cute things they do, etc. It bores me to tears. And I have children myself.

Only read OP,will read rest in a mo'.

I'd say though, like me, (who am not childless, and in fact work with em all day) she finds the interminable drivel that comes out of other parents' mouths tedium personified.

Other children's burps, farts, school achievements and first funny words are invariably interesting only to those with direct dna involvement. To hope for something else is PFB in the extreme.

Bucharest I agree, but and I've said this countless times on this thread now I hardly talk to her about the baby and I go out of my way not to talk about anything potentially boring. I just resent a) being ordered around in this way and b) the fact that she requires me to essentially pretend I'm not a parent. Oh, and c) the assumption that her career is automatically a more worthy conversation topic. Sometimes it is very interesting. But its this sense of entitlement that everyone else must dim the lights and hush because she's talking about it that gets me, while everyone else has to censor talk of their mundane and provincial lives.

Her career is intrinsically interesting to all and sundry? Please! As as SAHM I dread meeting up with people who bang on about their jobs all the time because that's all they have in their lives and they think it's so interesting for everyone else to hear about. I'd only agree to this evening out if her job is also off limits as a conversational topic.

I don't find people talking about their children boring.

I do find people who think their jobs are "intrinsically interesting" boring.

Good conversation is not determined by subject matter, but by style, humour, range, insight.

When my friends talk about their children they are funny and entertaining, just as they are when they talk about anything else. I enjoy their company, not a series of lectures on agreed subjects.

Her night out doesn't sound fun, so don't go.

An invitation to a night out with a friend should be about having fun together, not about one of you entertaining the other.

YANBU. However much this may be a source of private hurt to her (and we don't know this for sure; some people are just self-centred) it's not fair on you and it's highly arrogant for one person in a friendship group to dictate what can and can't be talked about. If it were me, I would play it one of two ways:

1. Say she can't talk about her career either (as has already been suggested) but make sure this is as blanket a ban as is the one on you discussing your child - i.e. if she so much as mentions her job, you will need to point out that she promised not to. This is the hard work but 'fair's fair' option.

2. Just decline invitations and say openly that you can't avoid talking about your DD at all, though you can manage not to go on at length, so it's probably better if you don't meet up for now. Call her bluff, basically. If you mean something to her as a friend, she will need to compromise a bit, as you have been prepared to do yourself. Next time she mentions the other friend who's a mum, I would definitely say 'IT would be nice to go out but given that you don't want to talk about kids, and OtherMumFriend and me may want to, perhaps it would be better if the two of us met up on our own and you came another time'. This is a bit harsher but is to demonstrate that the whole world doesn't revolve around her and she doesn't get to be puppet master.

Personally, I would take the second option. She doesn't sound very supportive to be around at the moment and with a very young baby, that's something you need. I have a very good friend who is happily childless by choice and since having DS she has been brilliant - she doesn't coo and she doesn't hold him but does loads of other nice things like getting photos of him copied for me, buying little toys for him, going to museums with us etc. Good friends who aren't child-people can and do find ways of handling the situation without alienating you and your child.

I have a "friend who once, when the kids were small, phoned and asked for me, then hung up on dh when he said "ssd is putting the kids to bed she'll call you back", she expected me to stop BF the baby and run downstairs

I think a lot of the problem isn't so much the pain childless friends feek when we talk about our kids, its just that the older they get the more selfish and me me me they get, my friend is childless and mid 40's and feels the world revolves around her, any small moans or problems I have don't get discussed as the aren't part of her world

dittany I've tried this. She has admitted in her cups that that's part of it. We had it out once and I said that I'd be much more understanding if she would actually be honest about this rather than pretending to look down her nose at all the dull, boring peasants with their boring nappy change stories. But she still maintains that her job is basically fascinating and refuses to see how other people could fail to appreciate this. And expects conversation about this to take automatic precedence, not only over conversation about kids but about any aspect of lives. Incidentally I've been working for 17 years (I'm on mat leave at the moment but will be going back full time this year) so its not like I'm a SAHM either. I have lots of friends with fertility problems who are going through agonizing attempts to conceive and by and large they are polite, respectful and interested in the baby (whether that's genuine or forced is another issue but they are well mannered). This person doesn't fall into this category, she's just used to bossing people around all the time and having kids tends to make people radically shift their priorities.

ssd yes this is spot on. In this case it's basically an eccentric selfishness. She's always been self-centred but as she's got older its become more and more pronounced because she doesn't have anything to anchor her in normality.

i'm going totally against the grain here and saying that it's a good thing that she's said up front how she feels. you can now decide wether to spend time with her or not.

i have had nights when we've been 'banned' from talking about work, sometimes it's a good thing, but sometimes i have really needed some support from friends about work troubles and the ban has just been annoying.

at least you know where you stand, you can say you'll meet her less often now as you do want to talk about your baby.

i know babies can't really be compared to dogs or work or hobbies but to some people they are the same thing - ie. just a topic of conversation that they know nothing about and can't join in with.

Snort at the creative arts being interesting to anyone everyone.

she sounds like a rude bore, my kids are a part of my life, not the only part but a big one, I wouldn't want to be friends with someone on those terms.

fluffles I know what you mean -- in a way I appreciate her more because I know we're going to have an adult conversation when we meet up and she makes me think. Its the being dictated to I object to and the sense of entitlement.

I'd be tempted to bring the (sleeping) baby along in a sling, but never actually mention the baby in conversation.

But being told what to do totally rubs me up the wrong way.

Do you actually enjoy your conversations with her?

I'm with the posters who say it might be an idea to cool the friendship for a few months (years?) and then pick up again when/if you feel like it. You feel resentful at her imperious attitudes (rightly, in my view), she doubtless feels that, having actually met your baby twice, she has made a gesture of interest and need do no more. No biggie - people change, lives change, friendships evolve or die.