to believe Pakistan is a failed state which harbours terrorists

[longfingernails]

and Britain should leave it well alone?

We certainly shouldn't give hundreds of millions of aid money to this basket case of a country, which gave Osama bin Laden shelter in the very heart of its military centre.

Absolutely, it could be. I don't think it's inevitable, but that's the big risk I think, and then of course if it does, then the risk of it kicking off between India and Pakistan becomes far higher.

The government of Pakistan is corrupt (you know you've got problems when your PM was called "Mr 10%") and fairly shambolic. Government ministers who argue against islamic law are getting murdered in the street. Al Queda's top man is having a family party 100m from your government barracks. It's not looking good is it?

Pakistan is generally recognised in the international community as a country at very high risk of becoming a failed state.

Wrong is wrong. They might be able to provide explanation, but not qualification - and certainly not exculpation.

I am continually amazed that people continue to accept their double dealing, because "that is how they are". It is simply not acceptable.

No amount of troubled history excuses the harbouring of Osama bin Laden.

Of course this is not inevitable and if we can do anything to stop this happening we should. Although I don't think our government's record in dealing with issues like this is that great.

lesley Agree. We cant afford to just disassociate ourselves. The issue is how to stay involved whilst making sure we're pressing our agenda rather than just writing blank cheques to no avail.

Thanks The Bride :)

longfingernails - It doesn't excuse it. The question is what can our government do that will be helpful. Kicking up a very public fuss about Pakistan government harbouring OBL won't I think be in our best long term interests. There are lots of situiations where someone can bne right, but it is not always the best thing to shout about this publically.

Agree The Bride. Very difficult decision to make though. Glad I'm not responsible.

The British meddled in India up to Partition. We seem to have walked away from the mess we left behind in Zimbabwe, however, no doubt we'll do the same here if we can get away with it

Ninah- I think that's quite simplistic. Firstly, I'm not sure it would be in any way helpful for us to step back into ex-colonies now. In fact, I imagine our involvement in Zimbabwe would likely make things worse- nothing like "unite against the colonial oppressor" as a rallying cry!

Partition was a huge fuck up, but we are where we are. I don't see the UK/US washing their hands of Pakistan. It's just too much of a problem in a way that Zimbabwe isn't.

nothing could make it much worse in Zim
but you're right, Lahore is a problem for the West and Harare is just a problem for itself

Pakistani journalists in Islamabad today were saying that they had been trying to get hold of key Government figures to question them about bin Laden being parked up in his own mini-fortress - but oddly nobody was responding. No surprise there then.
Big baksheesh being trousered all over the place.
The people of Pakistan deserve better than all this shit.

YANBU

Its quite funny because a lot of pakistanis have the oppossite point of view, that pakistan bends over to please america by allowin it to have army bases and throuh events ssuch as aafia siddiques arrest and the recent wikileaks revelations.

i am not pakistani and dont have that much knowlede about it.

Why is India so succesful and Pakistan such a failure?

RobF I think it's ultimately a question of values.

For all its problems, India is ultimately a successful democracy, an entrepreneurial society, and reveres the value of education as a country. It still has very deep rooted social issues to solve, but there is optimism about its future.

None of those things are true about Pakistan. Pakistan is a violent theocracy where women are subjugated, extremism runs rampant, and the very heart of government is infested with terrorist collaborators - as we see so clearly with the news about OBL today.

If you think that one penny of the eye-watering £690million we handed to Pakistan will get anywhere near educating children then you are a complete naive fool.

Sorry but he lived in a walled compound. Listen to the information coming out. The Pakistan military apparently knew he was there and not in a "Hey America guess who we found!" kind of way.

You have to stop being politically correct and namby pamby about these things. Not every country has Western values and we should not naturally assume that, it is that kind of ignorance that has made us wide open for the trouble-makers to come here and make life miserable for people who just want to live in peace.

Pakistan is not some kind of benevolent friend or a naughty child who'll learn their lesson. One of my friends visited family there when she was younger. Now although she doesn't wear a head covering she is always modestly dressed (and if I had hair like hers I wouldn't wear a covering either!) Her grandparents had come to Scotland to get away from the militant Muslims. When she came back from this visit she swore she would never return, calling the place "barbarian." I thought it a bit startling but she explained how much pressure the Pakistan branch of her family had put her and her parents under over everything - what she wore, the fact she had Western friends, the fact they had Western friends, the fact they hadn't married her off to someone who could then come and live in this horrible Western country they hate so much.

Being politically correct and the tremendous amount of ar$e-licking Blair did in trying to appease a faction that cannot possible be appeased has led us to this point.

Now can we have our bloody money back so we can have a decent education system and don't have to close any libraries!!!

Yes, the Labour party has a lot to answer for with its immigration policy. Not only has it imported so many people who hate our country into it, but a huge proportion of them are on benefits! Labour used immigration to try to destroy British traditions, institutions and values, instead of as a precision tool geared towards improving economic prosperity. Unfortunately, the Tories have no answer.

This is why immigration should be done strictly on a contributory principle. If people aren't net taxpayers, in highly skilled jobs, speaking good English, and supportive of western values, then they should not be allowed anywhere near this country.

What we should do is find a way of getting rid of the dodgy immigrants which Labour let in, and close our doors to this class entirely. We should be entirely welcoming of good immigrants, wherever they come from, instead of imposing arbitrary caps. Unfortunately, Labour doled out British passports like confetti for electoral purposes, so this is almost impossible to do. :(

I don't think it's a failed state but I think it's judged that because of comparisons with India. It has complex problems. I'm sure that in rural india many of the same social problems exist but they have a nice galloping economy and in demand graduates.

Whoever said that aid is usually given with robust conditions - well I guess that depends. My df was working in a country via dfid - whilst there dfid gave a load of aid to this country and it was spent on big german cars for the ministers. Lots of ministers, small country. Get the idea? They were then told off and told to deal with it. How they dealt with it was to sell off the big expensive cars at tiny prices to the ministers. So, how aid is given can be a bit hit and miss to say the least.

I worked for a smaller grant giving organisation. Due to financial contraints the organisation did rely to quite a degree on the grantee providing an honest assessment of the project. However, the accounts and receipts provided would often give a very different story.

I'm all for aid - but I'd like to think it was having an impact.

i dont think the pakistanis here hate the country, when diana died it was a pakistani friend who took me and her dds to put flowers at st james plalace, the vast majority of pakistanis here like this country, and would do anythin to et here and beable to live and work here.

what do you do about those who are born here re my brother the fundementalist who hate what the west stands for?

and do you propose that people shouldnt beable to brin people on spousal visas?

what about those who study here? should they be allowed to work after their deree for a few years or not? and in that time if they have a family/marry?

nailak I don't think all Pakistani immigrants hate Britain - just a worryingly large minority.

I do think we should immediately stop all spousal visas - the system is clearly being abused. In fact, we should stop spousal visas altogether unless the total family contribution to the British economy in tax revenue is more than 5 times the average (to pay for the future cost to public services).

No, I don't think people who come to study should be automatically allowed to stay on and work here. Certainly not.

Immigration should be based on purely economic imperatives. All social imperatives should be firmly in the direction of integration into our culture.

As for the question of what to do about British-born fundamentalists - well, that is the hardest of all. I don't know the answer to that one. Unfortunately, thanks to Labour's immigration policies, there are far more here than there should be.

Remember a lot of immigrants came here to get away from the extremist Muslim element only for it to follow and flourish here as the militant Islamists abuse the system that allows them the freedom of speech they hate.

YANBU longfingernails you are talking a lot of common sense and I like it........

Your right LFN - the Tories haven't got an answer. This country has become so spineless ( thanks to Labour policies ) that it will be very hard to regain any credibility - and why we have headlines like this

so basically rich people can marry and settle where they like but poor people can not?

and extreme islamic views are easily spread throuh free books atc sponsored by oranisations abroad and distributed for free, as well as forums and websites, that irl who stabbed my mp was "radicalised" purely throuh internet, so it is not really an immiration issue imo