to think that PND is an explanation but not an excuse.

[Northernlurker]

Ths is not a thread about a thread but it is inspired by something that I have read on here again and again and heard in RL as well.
Basically PND is mentioned as the excuse for whatever undesirable behaviour the poster has engaged in. AIBU to be pissed off about this because:

1. Fundamentally PND - or any mental illness - is not a 'Get Out of Jail Free' card. It may explain why you have acted as you did but bad behaviour is still bad and has consequences which you must bear.

2)Effectively saying PND 'made' me do this damages the reputation of all sufferers and increases discrimination against mental illness.

By all means mention it - but be clear it is as a part of an explanation. It is not the whole story and it's not the end of the conversation!

AIBU?

I have no experience of PND and I've not noticed many people on here mention it but...I do feel exactly the same as you when it comes to people using PMT as an excuse.

Depends how bad the pnd. In some cases, the person can be totally detached from reality.

In my case, after the birth of my son, I thought he had died at birth, been chopped up and replaced by a demon who leered at me.

But yes, I think you are right. There are explanations for behaviour. Understanding the reasons for behaviours can help you to help or deal with a person, but the reasons for the behaviour are not automatically an excuse. Or rather they do not excuse. or rather, the reasons do not make the behaviour acceptable and do not mean that the behaviour should be allowed.

You shouldn't say that a behaviour doesn't matter, because the person is x, y, z or has x, y, z.

Surely it is the intent behind the behaviour that also counts. In the case of PND or any mental illness there hasn't been a rational thought process so therefore it gives a reason for the behaviour which means that it should be forgiven. Would you rather someone carried the 'shame' of how they behaved with them their entire life? How is that helpful to anyone?

People can have temporary mental health issues and a doctor will tell you justifies their behaviour. Perhaps leave it to the medical profession to decide these things? From what i understand it requires a fair bit of effort to become medically qualified.

Have you had PND?

From your post i would say no.

PND changes the way you see yourself and the world. Would a normal person want to kill themselves and leave their newborn with out a mum and a husband without a wife? No

Untill you have been there shut the fuck up.

You sound like my mil, who thinks people with depression simply aren't trying hard enough to get better and that they should behave totally normally at all times. Its a very thorny issue and I agree with Birds, unless you are a mental health professional, probably best not to judge....

Can't really comment on PND as I haven't experienced it. But as someone who suffers from very severe PMT I know that its quite possible to get into hormonally-generated states when you lose touch with reality, albeit briefly. I've never broken the law or done anything seriously damaging to anyone I love as a result, but I've seriously lost the plot on several occasions. Seems to me that if you don't see this coming you could end up doing something quite unhinged as a result of PND. The question is how you react to it afterwards: i.e. do you get help and try to deal with it or do you use it as a reason to basically behave badly.

I think it is both an excuse and explanation, as i believe they are both extremely similar, and often are used together in an argument/debate.
If the person is not ignorant to what they have done, then i wouldn't consider pnd to be a 'get out of jail free card'.
However i do not think it increases discrimination either, i can not understand why you would think that.

I agree with Birdsgottafly.

Some people who have had PND may even agree with you - but not everyone suffers to the same degree.

I've never had it - but I know people who have had it, it was treated quite quickly and didn't impact on their life too much and others who suffered very badly - there were just not themselves and did things entirely out of character. Of course they still had to sort out any problems that arose from it (as in the thread you are talking about) but I do feel that some compassion for their situation is called for.

OP following on from my other post, how would putting a consequence on a behaviour help if the behaviour has not been rationally preconceived? Do you mean in a court of law or everyday life? You will have to explain further before people can answer.

I would have agreed with you up until 20 months ago but probably because I had not experienced PND. You can't help what you are doing for me I felt like I was in this huge fog stuck with a baby and everyone else was on the edge.
I have walked round scruffy for two years because I was convinced that I didn't deserve new clothes, I have fallen out with family members and isolated myself.
I had flasbacks and would wake up to see blood splattering up the wall it would fade as soon as I opened my eyes.
I could go on but the scary thing is that while I was in this fog I thought everyone else was odd and I was the only sane person around.
I am getting better now and was just thinking today (while wearing my new clothes!) What a miserable life I had for the first two years of dd's life:(.

I still have the fall out to deal with and nobody is running at me with open arms and saying we forgive you because you had pnd, but I do wish my sisters would understand a little of what was going on with me.

I haven't experienced PND, but I did suffer from extreme PTSD a few years ago that resulted in me being hospitalised for several weeks. I wasn't in control of my behaviour, my thought processes weren't rational, and I couldn't help being ill. Had I committed a crime at this point in my life I would probably have been found to have had diminished responsibility. It's not about "excuses," just understanding that when people are mentally ill they aren't always in control of their behaviour, and that mental illness is no less valid than a physical ailment. I honestly thought we'd got past this attitude by now.

I think people say they have PND too quickly, but I have relatives who suffer with depression and it is awful for them. they really are in a black tunnel

I agree with Birdsgottafly.

The use of the term "excuse" is a bit odd. Some forms of PND can seriously inerrupt rational thought processes, and even in law you are judged as to culpability and with regard to punishment of actions committed while (certifiably) irrational by a different yardstick to those deemed mentally competent.

I'm guessing you're not a medic or a lawyer.

I have seen it used on MN as an excuse for a foul thread - someone posted something reasonably nasty in AIBU and then started saying she had PND when people told her that she wasn't being very nice. In that circumstance I actually posted that I didn't think she should be using PND as an excuse.

I'm not sure if I was right. I have though been around mental illness all my life and have had to question - e.g. do I forgive my father for calling me disgusting slut repeatedly when I was 8 because he had forgotten to take his medication? Do I forgive myself for snapping at my kids when I feel crippled by antenatal depression? I don't know the answer, but I do know that I wouldn't try to use my depression to stop people from criticising my behaviour.

Its not as simple as that though. Some mental illness is more than an explanation, as some can affect the balance of your mind enough that you are not responsible for your actions (legally, morally is an individual call).

Generally, I would agree (as I did on that thread) that PND will be an explanation rather than an excuse, but what about post-natal psychosis? You're certainly into excuse territory there.

That's tricky, schmee.

Bil has mh issues, and drives me up the wall sometimes. And sometimes his behaviour is not nice. I call him on it, and then, yes, I feel bad - a lot of it is related to the mh issues.

On the other hand, he's out there (or with me, or whatever) and I surely have the right to say "no" to stuff he does - and also to point out that stuff is unacceptable, so that (maybe) he'll get the gist of the "playground/park" of "normal" behaviour.

It really isn't easy.

I think that it isn't an excuse, but can be an explanation.

I take responsibility for the consequences of my behaviour whilst I was ill with PND. I don't expect my debts to be wiped out because I was ill, I hold my hands up and say it was silly and destructive for me to stop opening bills and paying them, but I offer up PND and grief as an explanation to try to understand why I got to that state of mind in the first place. By understanding it, I am less likely to repeat the behaviour. I feel terrible for the what I put people through, and I do my best to never get back to that point again by recognising triggers and early warning signs.

I would expect to be held responsible for any crime I committed whilst mentally ill, though I would hope people would take my mental illness as a mitigating factor and my remorse and apologies into account when I stood up and took responsibility.

It wrecks lives, I'll never get those early years back with my children, but I make sure I do my best to continue to act responsibly and to take the support and medication I need to ensure mental wellness.

Have you ever had PND or been depressed? It does make people act out of character and really compassion is needed more than anything.

PND should not be used as an excuse for a offensive behaviour and beliefs but perhaps could be used as an explaination for a unreasonable attitude and snappyness. Possibly.

All I say is that you dont understand unless you walk a mile in the sufferers shoes, then make that comment.

So hard to answer this post. I know of people who have had PND and been close to suicide and behaved totally irrationally, they were ill they were not responsible for their actions. However I know that this is not supposed to be a thread about a thread but I cannot accept that the poster on the other thread did what she did purely because of PND and I don't suppose the law would see it that way either. Perhaps I'm wrong.

Interesting responses, thanks.

Just to be clear I am very obviously NOT talking about depression so severe that it causes you to harm yourself or wish to do so and I am not talking about post-natal pyschosis.

Schmee hits the nail on the head for me when she says 'I wouldn't try to use my depression to stop people from criticising my behaviour.' - it's the opposite of that position which I have observed and I think is unreasonable though I should say again I am NOT talking about any one thread. If there is a thread out there that you think relates to this well all I can say is 'ooops'

Schmee-surely the point of criticism is to stop someone behaving in a way that is upsetting but they don't see that or care. If the person has no control over the behaviour what is the point of criticism when they may be on the road to recovery or having a good few days.

There are medical reasons why people behave in certain ways. It should be for those qualified or understanding to decide this. I will use the 'socially accepted' mental illness, dementia. Are those suffering from this condition also using it as an excuse?
We can now scan the brain in the same way we scan for cancer and we know what will change behaviour so why is it still acceptable to just 'not believe' in mental health conditions?

To many people set themselves up as psychiatrist/doctor/ judge and jury when it comes to MH.

Sorry.