to think that PND is an explanation but not an excuse.

[Northernlurker]

Ths is not a thread about a thread but it is inspired by something that I have read on here again and again and heard in RL as well.
Basically PND is mentioned as the excuse for whatever undesirable behaviour the poster has engaged in. AIBU to be pissed off about this because:

1. Fundamentally PND - or any mental illness - is not a 'Get Out of Jail Free' card. It may explain why you have acted as you did but bad behaviour is still bad and has consequences which you must bear.

2)Effectively saying PND 'made' me do this damages the reputation of all sufferers and increases discrimination against mental illness.

By all means mention it - but be clear it is as a part of an explanation. It is not the whole story and it's not the end of the conversation!

AIBU?

I don't think I explained myself very well. I could not control myself, I wasn't evil or nasty but I cut myself off and took offence at everything and before I had PND I would have let it pass, but I have had two huge rows with my siblings (one of whom was my best friend) because I changed.

I wasn't me I felt like a robot I had to talk myself through a day, on bad days I would time myself in 20 minute slots, not for any reason just so that I had got through another 20 minutes of been awake :(.

I don't want people to feel sorry for me or my family to make allowances for me (because I think they fucked up too but that's another thread) I just wish that someone apart from dp would have understood a little bit.

I had late onset PND with ds1.

My mum told me I "didnt have time" to be depressed (she who I nursed through 2 breakdowns whilst still in my teens)

1 in 5 of us will experience some form of mental illness (like PND) in our lives.

I hope you are treated with compassion if it happens to you.

Sorry for getting a bit huffy earlier, Northernlurker - I think I was a bit rude in that last sentence on my first post. I'm embarrassed now.

I have a bit of a tender point on the whole PND excuse/explanation thing, and my fur went up in a weird, over-defensive way.

That's an explanation, not an excuse. Well, it's not, not really ...

Birds - where have I said that PND does not exist? I certainly do NOT believe that.

People tend to know there are consequences to mental illness. For instance, really bad post natal psychosis can result in being sectioned and banged up in a psychiatric unit.

What's the difference between and explanation and an excuse and just how do you feel people are getting away with bad behaviour because of PMD?

PND can be more than just low mood it can involve hallucinations and total loss of contact with reality. If someone does something terrible in this sort of state then, yes, it should be a get out of jail free card. They need to be in hospital until it is certain they are better.

Depression can involve a mental and physical slowing down known as psychomotor retardation. In the most severe cases this is observable and even the speech will slow right down. It can be hard to even get out of bed in this sort of state. I think it both explains and excuses what many would perceive to be lazyness.

So YABU

What kind of behaviour do you mean though OP? No illness gives anyone a license to deliberately be a bitch imo.

When my daughter was born I went through several stages of what must have been awful behaviour for those around me. These included suicide attempts, intense paranoia (believing DD had been swapped at birth for another baby as she seemed to hate me so much so she couldn't be my baby), anxiety about everything, that I wasn't doing everything "just right"... and the list is even longer but wont go into it as it's still upsetting to talk about some of the worse stuff I did and said, some of which I can't remember but DP, MIL and my own mum remember all to well.

I did however treat my MIL pretty badly. She isn't the most sensitive person but I don't think she's ever been intentionally horrible to me. It didn't stop me from being irrationally hateful in the early days though and saying some horrible stuff about her and blaming her for a lot of things that were not her fault. It was not her fault that DP did not understand how I was feeling (he was over the moon at being a dad and was flummoxed by my depression as he couldn't understand what I had to be depressed about). It wasn't MIL's fault she didn't understand PND either. She's never been depressed so how could she understand how I felt? She didn't deserve to be refused any time alone with DD for the first year or so on the basis that I thought she'd run off with my baby and not bring her back.

I don't know where the "excuse" of PND stops working. I do think that majority of my behaviour can be explained as PND.

Well give an example of what sort of behaviour that you are talking about. Also explain in what way it would be helpful to hold the person resonsible after the fact? You can make the choice who to mix with but I don't see why it is a subject that those unqualified see fit to comment as much as they do. Why is the lead on PND/MH not taken from those qualified. In terms of 'not believing' there is someone on MN weekly just not believing in a MH/SN condition.

Totally agree - it such a hard one to judge...

I think the reverse is true. I have had all sorts of people try and label me with PND. I KNOW I am not depressed. I'm still just as emotionally fine and stable as I was before I had my DS. I love him, and I am happy enough.

Unfortunately both doctors and family would rather say I had a disease than realise I am telling the truth when I say that I cold, hard, regret having had children.

It's akin to how unhappy women were treated in Victorian times, and I often wonder how many others are living with 'PND' when all they've done is gone against society's norms.

Effectively saying PND 'made' me do this damages the reputation of all sufferers and increases discrimination against mental illness.

No your OP is an example of someone clearly misunderstanding the effect a mental illness can have. Misunderstanding of mental illness increases the stigma sufferers face. If someones behaviour is very wrong as a result of a severe mental illness then they deserve compassion.

Most mentally ill people are not violent .That is a myth. But in extreme cases they can be as a direct result of their illness. If people understood that there would be less stigma surely?

Northan lurker could you answer if you mean in everyday life or the law court. To use the example in my other post; should someone suffering from dementia who takes their clothes off in public still be charged with a public indecency offence and be charged and branded a pervert?

As i said i am deliberatly choosing dementia because it is 'socially acceptable' (i personally do not consider any MH as carrying stigma). How can a member of the public think that they can decide to what extent a sufferer is affected by their condition?

PND is horrible horrible horrible. I lost the first 6 months of DS2's life basically. I needed medication and resisited it for so long.

I took our family dog to the park and left him there, I freaked out because all I could see were his hairs on the baby, I remember screaming with anger. I WAS NOT MYSELF, it's hard to explain if you haven't been there.

Do we sit in judgement and criticise those that lose control over their bowels? No we don't, then why do it to those that lose control over their thought process?

It is very hard to explain, it's like your in a distorted version of yourself.

"Just to be clear I am very obviously NOT talking about depression so severe that it causes you to harm yourself or wish to do so and I am not talking about post-natal pyschosis."

What are you talking about?

Good posts by Birds on this thread.

When our friend recovered from his schizophrenic episode, he was back to the lovely caring sweet individual we had always known: someone who simply wouldn't hurt a fly. Would this have been the right time to criticise him for trying to set fire to his house and boyfriend, and tell him mental illness is no get out card?

'Depends how bad the pnd. In some cases, the person can be totally detached from reality.

In my case, after the birth of my son, I thought he had died at birth, been chopped up and replaced by a demon who leered at me.'

That is a disorder known as postnatal psychosis. It is not/no longer depression, it has become psychosis.

I have experienced severe PND three times, but fortunately did not become delutional, which is the hallmark of psychosis.

In which case, many times, the person cannot tell the difference between right and wrong and can be considered insane by legal definition.

Otherwise, if it is determined to be clinically PND and not post-natal psychosis, it is diminished responsibility.

The murder of her 5 children by Andrea Yates for example. She was, having had a prior diagnosis and many treatments of and for paranoid schizophrenia and increasingly severe post-natal psychosis (the woman, although mentally incompetent and her husband being warned to use birth control, was continually impregnanted by her religious zealot husband), ultimately ruled not guilty by reason on insanity.

Dena Schlosser was also found not guilty by reason of insanity for the murder of her infant daughter due to post-natal psychosis.

Yet Theresa Riggi was today sentenced to 16 years imprisonment because, despite having been diagnosed with a trio of personality disorders, was able to tell right from wrong and not legally insane.

I remember next to none of the first 18 months of my first child's life.

However, I was not insane in the clinical sense of the word. I knew right from wrong.

I am often distressed to see criminal behaviour excused by PND because it takes us back to the age where children had to be removed from their mothers who had such a diagnosis because of the belief that all mentally ill people are incapable.

Good posts expat

expat-it does not take us back there because there has not been a call for a change in the law in regards to removing children without the agreement of more than one doctor about the parents state of mind (and then the child will be looked to be cared for within the family). Those in positions of power are educated about MH issues and do not have knee jerk reactions. It is the likes of the gutter press who call for the removal of children.

Anyone educated in social care issues would agree that there are degrees and differences between M Illnesses .

If you quote your own experience be aware that it is subjective and cannot be used to explain anyone elses experience.

EX pat. Sometimes depression and psychosis occur together. That is where the confusion comes from. I have had depression with psychotic symptoms.

What exactly is the OP talking about? It might make it easier to answer the question.