to think this woman shouldn't be charged with murder?

[GastonTheLadybird]

Apologies if there is already a thread on this, I had a look around and couldn't find one.

Link here about a pregnant woman in the U.S who attempted suicide and as a consequence of the drugs she took her baby died at just four days old. Utterly tragic story.

However, I think it is outrageous to charge this woman with murder, she was in a very hard situation and surely the choice to end her own life must remain her own, pregnant or not. This quote particularly stood out for me;

"Prosecutions like this are increasing in the US and are a result of anti-abortion rhetoric and movements that seek to give the foetus rights above and beyond those of women."

Thoughts?

She should be charged with something even if man-slaughter.

Why?

I agree with you.

I've heard doctors in the US are advised to consider all woman of childbearing age as "potentially pregnant".

Where will the line be drawn with future cases?

Poor woman should be helped not criminalised.

YANBU Agree with what AKissIsNotAContract said.

YANBU, she was suicidal fgs.

The poor woman. I imagine no punishment could ever be as bad as what she lives with daily. She needs help, not criminalisation.

First thought is that picking the one anti-abortion comment from the story isn't giving a fair picture of the content of the article. There is more to it than that. And what she did appears to be an offence under their laws at the time she did it.

BTW there is an offence in UK of child destruction - the man charged with the murder of Nikkita Grender was also charged with this offence because her unborn baby died.

It seems in this case that the woman caused such significant harm that her child died some time later. There is a clear difference between the deliberate ingestion of rat poison with the intent to end life, and "lifestyle" health choices, even when those choices may be suboptimal.

That said, the mother was under psychiatric care both before and after the birth. I don't know if US law permits defences of diminished responsibility, but I hope something along those lines would apply here. Not least because it may lead to continuing treatment for her.

Very sad case.

Peabodyblue, I think if a baby is born alive and then dies as a result of a third party's actions then charges can be brought against them, but not if they die in utero.

Meant to say charges of manslaughter can be brought against them.

YANBU. She's obviously been desperately unhappy and needs to be helped, not punished by the criminal justice system.

Ok. Thoughts. My thoughts. erm.

1. The plain fact of the matter - her actions resulted in the death of her unborn child.

1. Her mental state - someone who is actually trying to kill themselves is not rational. If the person who had died had not been her unborn child, but someone she had killed while the balance of her mind was so disturbed, she would not be guilty of murder.

1. The issue seems to be - is an unborn child a person or an extension, a part if you like, of the woman the child is inside. Those arguing for murder charge clearly feel separate person, those outraged that the woman could be prosecuted clearly feel an unborn baby is not a separate person, but a part of a woman's body.

4 - intention. Did the woman take the poison to kill the baby? Not from the report. She took it to kill herself. Again brings you back to is an unborn baby a person or a part of the mother until birth?

5 - is a pregnant woman one person or two? Does a pregnant woman have responsibility only to her wants, needs, thoughts, feelings etc, or are there two people inhabiting the body, both with equal rights? Or are there 2 people in the body, but only one has rights? That comes down to those who feel that life begins at birth v those who feel that life begins at conception.

oh, I don't know. I don't know. If we take the report as the truth of the matter, then she was mentally disturbed enough to want to die. That's not the same as murdering your child. Yes, the poison resulted in the death of the child, but was that her intention. If not, then it cannot be murder. Murder requires intent to kill. She intended to kill herself.

However, if she intended to kill herself, she did so knowing that in doing so, she would also kill her baby, since it could not live inside her once dead! So there was an intent to kill the baby, wasn't there?

So does it come down to - does the baby matter? being unborn, does it matter? Does it matter enough to require a punishment? clearly some think yes and some think no.

I am reminded of those cases where depressed parents kill their children and then make an attempt on their own lives too, only to call for help. So they live but they killed their child. What happens to them? They are assessed. If they are mentally ill, they are helped. If it is decided that they are not, then they get charged with murder.

Difference? born v unborn.

I don't know. I think that she tried to kill herself and in doing so did cause the death of her baby and she needs professional help, not a murder charge.

But then I think, am I saying that because the child was not born yet? If the child had been 5 and she'd poisoned the child and herself then called for help for herself but the child had died, would I feel the same or would I think that she needed to face some punishment?

Do I even post this since I have blathered on for possibly pages and pages?

In future, threads will read " Thoughts please (except from Hec)

Depends on the state, peabody. I'm quite sure that there have been charges of murder brought against people who killed the foetus in utero.

I'm not sure if no charges would be brought, but not murder or manslaughter. The House of Lords ruled that a foetus could not be the victim of a violent crime where the violence causes death in utero, but if the baby is born alive and dies of it's injuries then manslaughter is the appropriate charge. I think the cut off point applies because unborn babies don't have a legal personality so can't therefore be seen as "victims."

The woman caused the babys death of course she should be charged with something, she can used diminished responsibility as a defense but she should'nt get away with it.

Lots of people commit crimes and have mental health issues, she tried to take her own life that in turn killed her child, she is responsible and should be held accountable, she can't get away with it.

It's not like she didn't know she was pregnant she did, if she was that far gone, why not wait to give birth first, why be so selfish as to try to take hers and the life of her unborn child.

Time restraints for termination are their for a reason, she did not terminate and chose to carry to term the child. Then she should have fulfilled that duty before trying to take her own life.

Sorry she is accountable and certainly in the eyes of the law.

I didn't intend the quote to summarise the article, hoped people would read it themselves, it just summed up my concern quite nicely.

I don't see how a charge of murder can help things in this situation, surely she will have suffered enough?

More generally, pregnant women aren't just incubators, at what point we draw the line both in terms of gestation and degree of harm are very important imo and whether or not cases like this are the start of slippery slope is concerning.

I'm talking about England and Wales btw, not sure about the US.

I actually think it's right she should be charged and/or her mental health problems be addressed. She was only a week away from giving birth! Suicidal or not that was an incredibly selfish, not to mention obviously stupid thing to do. As the child of someone who has attempted suicide many times I also feel that if she had really wanted to kill herself she wouldn't have done it in such a manner that allowed her to be found and treated - she'd have got it over and done with. This seemed to have been just a cry for attention with no thought to the consequences to that poor little baby.

Doesn't the article say that the baby could have been (more) damaged by the drugs the mum was given at the hospital? I think she has enough to bear - she's lost everything she had a few months ago. Poor woman.

Great post Hecate, you're right, there are so many issues at play here and it isn't very cut and dry and opinions will be dependent on many of those variables.

Ramble away

I agree with Fabby. Sad as her circs are, her actions resulted in the death of a baby.

Hecate "However, if she intended to kill herself, she did so knowing that in doing so, she would also kill her baby, since it could not live inside her once dead! So there was an intent to kill the baby, wasn't there?"

You're assuming she was in a state of mind to even think about the fact that by killing herself she would also be killing her baby.

Hmmmm..different countries ha e different laws, though.

I Imagine (I'm no expert on international laws) she wold be prosecuted in Irleland,some US states, but not the UK.