to think this woman shouldn't be charged with murder?

[GastonTheLadybird]

Apologies if there is already a thread on this, I had a look around and couldn't find one.

Link here about a pregnant woman in the U.S who attempted suicide and as a consequence of the drugs she took her baby died at just four days old. Utterly tragic story.

However, I think it is outrageous to charge this woman with murder, she was in a very hard situation and surely the choice to end her own life must remain her own, pregnant or not. This quote particularly stood out for me;

"Prosecutions like this are increasing in the US and are a result of anti-abortion rhetoric and movements that seek to give the foetus rights above and beyond those of women."

Thoughts?

I agree with Hecate. Whether she is in the state of mind or not to think about it is totally irrelevant. If she knew full well a suicide attempt would kill or damage the baby in utero or after birth, then what more can we say. A psychiatric report may distinguish whether she was of sound enough mind to understand the consequences of what she was doing.

YANBU - A person should always retain autonomy over their own body. An unborn foetus is not an independant entity.

The prosecution are wrong. It is disgusting of the state to allow prosecution and a disgusting misuse of state funds.

I am pro-life but I still think this woman shouldn't be charged with murder. I could understand manslaughter (they have like a million degrees over there don't they? Surely this could come under one of them?). She needs psychiatric help not demonisation by a politically charged legal system. I can't see how this is helpful - surely it will drive mentally unwell pregnant woman away from help as they will become scared of the consequences ("if I admit to being suicidal could they charge me?")

I agree that an unborn foetus is not an individual in their own right. I think finding a mother-to-be guilty of murder in a case like this would be setting an extremely dangerous precedent.

As lynette said, where does that leave pregnant women who drink or smoke? What about someone who drinks coffee or who falls down the stairs because they're wearing high heels? What if their partner/doctor/social worker decides that they were taking an uneccesary risk and chooses to press charges?

Nasty. Women are not merely incubators and they must retain autonomy over their bodies. Not to allow them to do so is draconian, to say the least.

YANBU dear god, can't they leave this poor woman to grieve for all she has lost? Hasn't she suffered enough? She was suicidal ffs she may not have made the connection that killing herself would kill her baby, lots of people don't think straight when they want to die.

She needs help and support, not being made a criminal. Besides, whatever way they punish her wont be anywhere nearly as bad as losing her baby. I can't think of a worse legacy.

It is scary over here in the States, they are trying to take the right of choice away from women in several states. Although I am not a pro-lifer, I have recently had cause to feel abortions were too easily available - in the abortion clinic near us the mothers were boasting about how many their teenaged daughters had had, as though it were a proof of their virility and maturity to have had 5 abortions by 18 :-( But - now they are trying to put laws in place that stop women with good cause having an abortion, rape victims, those with unsafe lifestyles etc... and women whose actions are thought to have endangered their unborn babies' life can also be charged. It seems very Big Brother and extreme to me. I can't see that it will lead to a better system...

Charging her with murder implies that she is merely an entity for reproduction and has less importance as a human being in her own right than as a carrier for a baby. That she gives up individual rights over her own body by becoming pregnant.

The way some American states are going, you would almost feel safer being sterilised as a woman than risking getting pregnant and charged with foetal murder. Where are they going with this? What if you decide to continue to exercise while pregnant and they decide there might be a medical link between that and a miscarriage? What if you do anything but lie in bed for the final 4 months?

I don't think it's as cut and dried as that. A woman can legally have an abortion within the terms of the relevant Act, but if she does so otherwise (eg after the time limit) then an offence has been committed; but the connexion (or otherwise) between her body as "host" or autonomous hasn't changed.

Likewise, if two women were stabbed (non-fatally) in the abdomen, but one was pregnant and the stabbing caused the death of the unborn child, would you expect to see different charges laid against the perpetrator for each crime, especially if his intent was to kill the unborn child?

Yes, I know this case is different, I am raising these scenarios to show that the law does sometimes need to take the unborn child into account.

What a bad idea to prosecute the poor distressed woman! Have they not got better cases to go after?
Anyone who is distress to attempt suicide should get help and time to recover, not time in jail. Cannot see how jail can help anyone, but that's a different matter.
She had no intent to kill the baby, she'd have tried abortion, not to kill herself.

And if the prosecutors feel the need to go after anyone, why not try the father of the baby, who caused so much distress to the woman he mislead and impregnated, that she did not want to live?????

Anyone who thinks this women should be charged with murder is not someone I would ever want to speak to. I think you should be ashamed of yourselves.

She tried to kill herself. HER-self. Only one autonomous person was alive at that stage, not two. She has the right to do whatever she wants to her own body, and no-one should be prosecuted for that.

And don't kid yourself it has anything to do with the law, or protecting anyones rights, or looking out for a victim. Its politics, plain and simple, its one more step to restricting the rights of women to their fundamental rights of bodily integrity.

I shall put this on here as well, since it hasn't been mentioned yet. The article I read had comments from people re. this being another step towards abortion being outlawed - which I believe is true.
In Mexico, some women are being prosecuted and jailed for miscarriages they have had, because abortion is illegal - presumably because there is no "proof" that the miscarriage is spontaneous. Human Rights activists are trying to change this deplorable state of affairs - if American states start to move more towards the Mexican situation, it will weaken the chances of changing things there.

I feel very badly for this poor woman. She thought she was having a baby with her boyfriend and they were going to get married - then she finds out that he is a philandering husband to someone else! She is of Chinese extraction, and may have the traditional sense of honour and bringing shame on herself and her family (she might not either but it's a potential factor) and in her deep distress and despair tries to kill herself. I don't know whether or not she was thinking of her baby at all at that point. BUt once it was born, and then died, she must have been in the horrors that her actions had any impact on the loss of her child.

So I don't agree that she should be charged with murder, no. She needs help for sure, and perhaps she should be put in a secure mental health institution for a while until she is no longer a risk to herself; but charging her with murder won't achieve anything.

Poor bloody woman. Poor baby. Horrible situation.

not extraction, she is Chinese and moved to the US as an adult. Very different attitudes in China.

Even more chance of the Chinese dishonour scenario figuring strongly then, don't you think, Winter?

Absolutely.