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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think this woman shouldn't be charged with murder?

64 replies

GastonTheLadybird · 15/04/2011 18:04

Apologies if there is already a thread on this, I had a look around and couldn't find one.

Link here about a pregnant woman in the U.S who attempted suicide and as a consequence of the drugs she took her baby died at just four days old. Utterly tragic story.

However, I think it is outrageous to charge this woman with murder, she was in a very hard situation and surely the choice to end her own life must remain her own, pregnant or not. This quote particularly stood out for me;

"Prosecutions like this are increasing in the US and are a result of anti-abortion rhetoric and movements that seek to give the foetus rights above and beyond those of women."

Thoughts?

OP posts:
HecateQueenOfTheNight · 15/04/2011 18:40

Good point. Amazing that there was one I missed really, considering the length of that Hmm. ties in with what I said about mental state and not being rational.

juuule · 15/04/2011 18:44

Shineymoon , this article says she was 33weeks, not just a week away from giving birth.

ChaoticAngelofchocolateeggs · 15/04/2011 18:45

Grin @ Hecate and ramblings.

It was your 'ramblings' that made me think of that point.

millie30 · 15/04/2011 18:46

My personal view on this is that the rights of the mother should outweigh the rights of the baby, until it is born and no longer dependent upon the mother's body. Therefore if a woman chooses to take an overdose or self harm, that is her right. It's very sad, and I hope she is given the help she needs but I don't think she should be charged with anything.

TidyDancer · 15/04/2011 18:48

I don't feel she should be charged with murder, but neither do I think she should be getting off without a charge full stop. She did something she knew to be harmful and likely fatal to her unborn child. Very tricky legal situation given that abortion is closely related to the issue, but I do think a charge of some kind is appropriate. Definitely some medical treatment as well, clearly.

ShinyMoonInAPurpleSky · 15/04/2011 18:50

thanks juuule, I only saw that it said she attempted suicide on 23rd Dec and the baby was born on New Years Eve so I assumed she was near her due date.

SkinittingFluffyBunnyBonnets · 15/04/2011 18:54

Isn't it because suicide is illegal? What if she had for instance attempted a home abortion? (I am pro choice btw)

ShinyMoonInAPurpleSky · 15/04/2011 18:55

I don't think it is illegal any more (in the UK anyway).

NinkyNonker · 15/04/2011 18:56

I think she should be charged with something. She was rational enough to be convinced to seek help by friends, I find it unlikely that she was incapable of remembering that she was pregnant and that this would have an effect on her child. At 33 wks the baby could have lived outside her quite easily, early stages of pregnancy maybe a little different.

bebemooneedsabreak · 15/04/2011 19:05

One cannot assume she knew what she was doing and knew what the outcomes of her actions would be. Being deeply depressed makes you come to irrational conclusions which seem completely logical to oneself at the time...and sometimes your logic tells you the world would be better without you....
and I can imagine it might make sense then that you might think that since the world would be better without you, it would be better without the child that cannot live without you too. Would it not be selfish/and cruel to leave a poor little helpless baby behind with no one to care for and love it?
(can you not imagine thinking that? I certainly can and it's terribly sad and shows a mind which needs help and support and sympathy and love... hopefully she gets the help she needs and the allegations do not impede her getting these things and to make a proper recovery)

Also her cultural origins might factor into her depressed and self depreciating thoughts.

LynetteScavo · 15/04/2011 19:13

So basically, you can do what you like before the baby is viable outside the womb, after that (24 weeks) you need to ensure the baby is safe.

So, could taking drugs, drinking and smoking could also lead to prosecution?

LDNmummy · 15/04/2011 19:18

America is messed up.

stealthcat · 15/04/2011 19:25

The woman in this case took an action, which she presumably intended to be life threatening (to herself, and by extension also to the baby), which led to the death of the baby after it was born.

It seems appropriate that she is charged with this, but that any relevent details regarding her mental state are used to determine sentencing/compulsary treatment if she is found guilty, rather than as a reason not to prosecute.

DegreesExperiencebutnojob · 15/04/2011 19:25

"The rights of the mother should outweigh the rights of the baby, until it is born and no longer dependent upon the mother's body. Therefore if a woman chooses to take an overdose or self harm, that is her right. It's very sad, and I hope she is given the help she needs but I don't think she should be charged with anything."

Exactly millie30 - this is right. An unborn baby is not an independant entity.

rollittherecollette · 15/04/2011 19:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DegreesExperiencebutnojob · 15/04/2011 19:27

This case is absolutely outrageous. The prosecutors should be in the dock! And convicted, at least on harrasment grounds.

G1nger · 15/04/2011 19:30

If anything, then surely she should only be charged with infanticide. I have a feeling a mother can't be jailed for that in the very early stages of life (or I guess, late stages of near life in this case).. but I'd prefer not to put a search to find out in my internet history!

stealthcat · 15/04/2011 19:30

"An unborn baby is not an independant entity."

This baby was not unborn - the baby was 4 days old.

meditrina · 15/04/2011 19:30

As I posted above, there is a crime of child destruction in UK (England and Wales, and probably Scotland still, as I don't think they've relegislated), this was used recently to charge the man accused of the murder of Nikkita Grender as his actions also killed her unborn baby.

I think it can also be used for illegal abortion.

It is not used for other actions (including drinking, smoking, drug use) harmful though they may be, as they are not catastrophic events directly leading to the death.

bemybebe · 15/04/2011 19:37

It is a very complex case I think. If the story was different, but outcome the same... The woman is deliberately and without her knowledge given something to eat/drink that subsequently kills her 4 day old child... Is this a murder?

DegreesExperiencebutnojob · 15/04/2011 19:38

Its a disgrace. A person should always retain autonomy over their own body. The

DegreesExperiencebutnojob · 15/04/2011 19:39

The prosecution are in the wrong.

bemybebe · 15/04/2011 19:39

Btw, I am pro-choice and agree that the woman should have the right to her own body over and above anybody else.

bemybebe · 15/04/2011 19:40

Prosecution cannot be wrong, it is their job to be on the side of the victim. The judge/jury are wrong.

DegreesExperiencebutnojob · 15/04/2011 19:44

The woman was pregnant. The child was born prematurely.